ONE BILLION RISING. Will you give your support to women across the planet on 14 February?

Thank you for those links Butty They are heart rending.

There is a parallel discussion over on Mumsnet, if anyone is interested in their views?

Hi whenim64

I totally agree that it is very wrong that women or men are set upon by gangs or asaulted.
Unfortunately if a woman on her own is set upon by a gang and nobody knows about it at that point in time nothing can be done to defend her.
That said my late wife and myself did as much as possible to make sure our daughters dressed sensibly and did not go into the park etc on their own at night and we gave them lifts to venues etc.
I think we were very lucky both our daughters found their first boy friends at school and we knew the parents well so we felt happy they were not going out with strangers.
They are now both married to them.

Frank

Please read Butty's links, HUNTER.

By the way, the majority of rapes and sexual assaults against women and children happen in the family home, not in parks or on the streets.

hunter sorry I am not having a dig at you........ but does the way a girl dresses excuse some low life of taking advantage of her.

HUNTERF I am not trying to get at you but I have to say that you seem to me to be expressing a very naif – and mistaken – viewpoint. Of course you and your late wife took great care of your daughters, as I'm sure the rest of us have also done with our daughters. However, dressing sensibly no more prevents rape than dressing "provocatively" causes it. Rape is an act of violence and control – not sexual gratification. The female victim is not responsible in any way. Rape is not confined to dark bushes in the park at midnight. Please also be aware that the victims of rape are not only young girls but have been any age, including women in their nineties.

I believe that it is wholly unacceptable to hold the view that any woman somehow brings rape or other forms of sexual violence upon herself by the way she dresses or where she walks.

We have the right to dress as we like and to walk where we like. We should not feel it necessary to cover ourselves or to stay indoors after dark.

Hi whenim64

Can you tell me how you can prevent assaults against women in the home?. If an assault happens something can be done if there is evidence but you can not take action against a man because a few women think he is a potential rapist.
I can remember when I worked in London a lady complaining to the police about a man was following her to the train every evening and she wanted him to get a later train.
She ran and fell over and injured herself.
The man had never touched her and like her he wanted to get home as quickly as possible after he finished work.
He was in no way responsible for the woman falling over.
I also do remember young ladies in train carriages by themselves wearing very skimpy clotheng late in the evening.
Where as this does not give any man an excuse to rape them it is a hard fact of life that there are perverts aroung but it is a small minority of men.

Frank

HUNTER I wouldn't know where to begin, as your points baffle me, but I'll give it a shot.

Prevention of violence to women in the home, for me, hinges on the ability of humans to know where the boundaries are and treat each other respectfully. Surely that comes from how they are socialised and given guidance, learn how to empathise with one another, and how to manage very strong feelings. Men need to learn how to self-regulate as children, not assume entitlement or the right to invade women's space, when they need privacy and support from one another. Women can feel vulnerable on many levels, and men have the power to exploit this. A good man would never seize those opportunities, but respect that this is how it is.

Women grow up generally learning to nurture and support, and will naturally share or hand over power. Making yourself vulnerable and trusting a man not to take advantage of that is key. Unfortunately, until men learn to say 'no' to themselves, women end up getting hurt physically and emotionally.

Society has a responsibility to enable people to live responsible, respectful lives. By the time little boys are at school, they have learned to believe that they are stronger, louder and more daring than girls. Education has a large part to play in prevention of violence to women and children.

Your question, ideally, could have been 'how can men learn to control themselves so they don't harm women and children?' Sexual aggression, power and control, sense of entitlement - when men learn how to handle and control these aspects of themselves, women start to be safer in their homes.

Men who start using their fists to get control, make threats of violence to intimidate a women into capitulating, or rape her to vent anger and make themselves feel better, have to get themselves re-educated and removed from that environment whilst they do it. A man who genuinely regrets harming women or children will go and get help so he doesn't do it again. That might mean walking into a police station and saving her the trauma of reporting it. We are talking about criminal offences here, after all.

I get the impression you have not involved yourself in discussion of these issues, but there's a wealth of information available, and many men have taken on the responsibility to ensure boys in their families do not abuse their power or develop anti-women attitudes. Please do read the links that Butty provided on here. Examples of wonderful men who get what has gone wrong in society to make women and children vulnerable to attack and abuse, and who strive to help them heal.

By the way, why not accept the ladies only classes you refer to on another thread, and do what women have done for decades - leave them to it and sort something out for yourselves? Peace!

Hi wenim64

Ladies can have their ladies only classes as long as they pay in full for them.
If the centre wants to put on ladies only classes men only equivalent classes must be provided.
The problem is I do not think the centre will run aerobic classes and bums and tums classes for 3 or 4 men.
Men are council tax payers.

Frank

When I went away to think about my reply to hunter and find you have answered so much better than I could have.

Great post When

HUNTERTF is obviously an older gentleman with an older gentleman's views. His comments 'wearing skimpy clothes' reinforces that. HUNTERF you aren't giving your own sex much integrity by saying this - a skimply dressed young lady means that some poor male is driven to rape her. As far as I'm concerned even if she is in her bra and knickers NO is NO.Did you know that it is only in recent history that it became illegal for a man to rape his wife?
What these ladies are trying, without much success I'm afraid,is to say that they are trying to educate men/policemen/judges about their attitudes towards rape. In other words no woman is 'asking for it'.
Your little tale of the girl on the train is risible. Maybe in the past she had been attacked in some way by a man and this had made her very wary of being on her own. There have been times when I've walked home in the dusk and had someone walk very close behind me. It made me nervous. One nice chap realised this and said 'don't be afraid I'm going to walk across the road and go down the other side', which he did. How understanding of him and I thanked him. With all due respect educate yourself.

Well, I am absolutely gob-smacked HUNTER!

I put my heart and soul into writing something meaningful to try and explain why women feel the need to rise up and campaign for safety and an end to the violence they have endured, on a thread that is dedicated to this issue, and all you are bothered about is whether a few women might be getting some subsidised exercise classes that you want to muscle in on!

I REST MY CASE!

Please don't bother me again. I can't be arsed, either!

Great post, as always, When. Interesting take in the Guardian on on Joanna Lumley's recent remarks:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/27/joanna-lumley-rape-advice

Yes, that's a realistic article hummingbird and reflects how my daughters and their friends have kept themselves safe over the past few years. Joanna Lumley did not, I am sure, intend to blame victims of sexual attacks. Any woman who looks vulnerable on the streets, on her own, dressed skimpily, much the worse for drink, is not inviting exploitation of her vulnerability.

when That's really a perfect example of what was being discussed – ordinary nice men not taking rape seriously and not understanding the nature of the crime.

Great post when - and I've read your links butty. Wish I could get to a "Rising" but will "Rise" in spirit.

Perhaps every time a man is mugged for his Rolex, money and top-of-the-range mobile and laptop, we should point out that if he didn't wear and carry expensive items ,it wouldn't happen. He was just asking for it … Yes, well that's just about as ludicrous as comments on dressing sensibly and not going to the park.

Exactly, When. Men, too, have to take care to protect themselves from assault and worse, particularly when drunk, but it's women who suffer rape, and the whole debate hinges on encouraging everyone, regardless of gender, to believe that rape is wrong.

Great post when.
Be nice to see some men only classes are needed in some local leisure centres. There is a clear need for education. I might suggest some classes:
Awareness of gender issues in the 21st century.
Anger management
Emotional literacy
The difference between respecting and patronising women

Could devise innovative courses that combined such issues with a little meditation or light exercise to improve their blood pressure.

Good idea Jess and wouldn't it be great if the only men that enrolled were the ones that needed these classes, and not the ones who are already switched on to those issues?

Ideally, women could nominate men who needed to attend

Wouldn't happen, would it?

Hunter Imagine this make-believe world.

A land where women are, on average, about five inches taller than men, and broad, muscular and butch to match, and are driven by their hormones to be top bitch dog in all situations. Men are smaller, weedier, and have a different set of hormones which predispose them toward caring and nurturing.

Women make up almost all the governing body, their supremacy reinforced by the close ties they have formed in the W I , where those with the wealthiest parents spent their youth, as boarders in a community with an antiquated ethos full of arcane habits and a tradition of "public service" which sends them automatically into politics and power. The laws are made mostly by women.

The spiritual life of the community is led by spinsters or near-spinsters, who are jealous (not envious, that has a different meaning, see dictionary) of their relationship with their God and will not allow any of the weaker sex to mediate with Him, only women. Men can join, of course they can, and they can worship, but leading the worship is for those who were born by chance without the y chromosome.

Big business is also largely in the hands of women entrepreneurs, as is military power and strategy, and the carrying out of military operations. Men do most of the cleaning, catering, childcare, and nursing. In the workplace, young bottoms are caressed by passing strangers, crude invitations are common at the coffee machine, the stationery cupboard is a no-go area for the office junior without a friend to defend his back.

In the bedroom, women customarily take the initiative and expect their men to welcome them whether they are feeling receptive or not. If the women feel the urge, but have no resident man, they get into a car and drive around until they find one who looks willing. It is well-known among the sisterhood that they any young lad wearing tight jeans and a fashionable jacket is inviting their attention, and if their long wavy hair is blowing in the wind, well - they are gagging for it.

Mothers guard their sons anxiously, and worry about their safety if they are late home. Daughters are considered bold and strong, and there is a certain pride in their many conquests, but with sons you can never be sure they can fight off a determined and rugby-playing older woman.

In the pub, girls knock back pints and boast to their mates about last night, and swap tales of which of the teenage lads are "easy" and afterwards pester their date to let them go a bit further, a bit further, until they can't apply the brakes.

Their mothers leave Dad in charge of the kids while they watch Coronation street with a six-pack of lager. after father has put the kids to bed and washed the dishes, mother is in the mood, but father is tired out. That is tough, he is outvoted by a majority of one and if he objects, he gets a bruise or two by way of encouragement.

Perhaps Mother takes Father out for a film and a curry (feeling a bit generous today, she had a good time last night) leaving Auntie Sue babysitting. Auntie looks in at the weans tucked up in their little beds. How lovely they look. She slips in beside the little lad with the curls and rosy cheeks and strokes his back. And other parts.

Reversing the roles of the sexes, it sounds monstrous. It already is monstrous that women are still considered by many men as sex toys.

---------------------------------
The bottom line is, there are still vast gaps between the experiences of most men and most women, and the area where it hurts most (physically and otherwise) is in sexual harassment and rape. It is not the answer for men to guard their own womenfolk or to consider them responsible for attracting male domination and exploitation. Each man needs to police his own behaviour and attitude - as women are already expected to, if they don't want to be thought to be fair game.

What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Thank you Elegran. That makes such tough reading.