Gentle Parenting

If your Dd doesn't want things to change there's nothing you can do. I'd keep quiet.

Unless your DD asks for advice and even if she does she would probably not want to hear it.
Nothing you can do or say.

Wow Manxgirl, I could have written the OP myself!
DD has 5 year old twins. She is also on her own...except that we live only 9 doors away and do the school run and most of the holiday care as she is working. No answers to offer!

I would just help out as much as you can with cooking, taking the children out, laundry etc.
We didn't get it all right in our day either!

Ps when they are both at school they will need a good night's sleep and things may improve then.

DD1 is like this with her 3 children. She is so keen to be a good mummy, and she is, but is run ragged doing things for and with her children almost 24 hours a day. Her little ones are lovely but expect a lot of her. I hate to see her so permanently exhausted. The long bedtime routine happens in their house too. Instead of the children settling quickly after this, they take ages to go to sleep, and like your experience Manxgirl the younger two are very poor sleepers.

However, this is her decision and her children. It is up to her to parent how she wants to. Not for us to comment really.

Is your daughter lonely?

DD has just had her first baby,our first grandchild, and I'm becoming aware of how much grandma's have to 'zip it' as so much has changed .My very elderly mums pet subject at the moment is how she can't understand how my nieces cope with work when they make 'such a meal of bedtime '(her words)-lying on the bed, stroking the boys hair, endless stories and singing etc until they fall asleep, only to have them ending up in their beds later in the night. She gets very vocal about it .Thankfully to me not them!
So it will be interesting to see how my own DD and partner approach parenting.Interesting question Obieone. Is she lonely ?
DDs partner works away Monday to Friday so she's effectively a single parent during the week.I'm not sure if she will want peace and quiet in the evenings,or company!Lovely for me,and luckily for her -hopefully-we live very close by and will help if needed.
I'm just beginning to realise how much tact and diplomacy grandparents need to employ.

Our own parents never knew what tact and diplomacy meant, well my mother didn't . She lived 3 miles away and stuck her oar in at every opportunity.
That generation, she was born in 1904, were the matriarchs and let everyone know it.
It is not too strong to say I was scared on my mother, I never , in those early days, stood up to her and eventually moved 60 miles away, she still tried to rule, but the ball was firmly in my court then.
I am amazed how the tide has turned, it did need to but it has gone too far in my option.
Young parents are making things so difficult for themselves but they must learn for themselves.
What a cliche ridden post but "whatever".

She may enjoy The 3 day Nanny on Channel 4. One poor girl's husband had left her with IVF triplets and an toddler ( all under 3).. She may not wish to watch however, too close to home but inspiring. Actually probably best to keep quiet and keep up your invaluable help.

I have a friend who says what she thinks, but makes it clear that she doesn't expect people to change.

In other words she would voice her view on this situation (e.g. if the mother says she is tired) but just offer it with a "take it or leave it". Kindly of course.

I think that's quite a good approach because it's better than always pussy-footing and it may sow a seed.

My son and DIL did the stroking and fussing at bedtime too (first time, 40 year old parents) etc but when we babysat, we never did and now my 2 year old grandson seems to have adapted to our style of parenting and just goes to sleep when put in his cot. Lucky for his parents! Anyway they are thrilled that he "self soothes". There's a label for everything these days, I'd never heard of gentle parenting.

Just say "I'm happy to help if you need it" and then butt out.

Problem is looking in from outside we can see the issues...however when one "lives" it you cannot. All I can suggest is offer support..child care so she can have a break. Unlikely she will trust you with evening/overnight.
We all made mistakes but I listened to my mum..probably to much.
My daughter riddled with guilt as she works so my grand daughter is a monster at times...shes now slowly beginning to see. I child mind and when she's with me Im fair but firm and consistent but if daughter around I take back seat completely. I don't attempt to discipline, I leave all to her.
I support my daughter whatever my internal feelings. Grand daughter responds to me in positive way...As parents we have all been there but I think out offspring forget that

There is so much pressure on Mums these days to be the 'perfect' Mum - not just from the media/advertising companies but from other Mum's themselves. I can remember sitting in my daughter's living room after my grandson was born with a collection of her friends who were also new Mums and listening to them talking about having their baby with them 24 hours a day, demand feeding etc etc and the unspoken criticism if anyone dared ventured to suggest that a routine plus the odd day off when a relative could help. Being exhausted seemed to be a badge of honour and a sign that they were all 'earth mothers'. On schooldays my grandchildren have set bedtimes and I spend about 15 minutes each with them whilst they get changed, do their teeth etc and get into bed. I usually spend a little extra with my youngest granddaughter as we read a story together whilst she settles down. My daughter is now a single Mum who works full time and is also disabled so I do much of the domestic routine and it has to run smoothly. I do get the 'other people's Nan's' business but largely ignore it as things have to work for us, my daughter is exhausted by the time she gets home from work and I want her to be able spend time with the kiddies without worrying about bedtime etc. Gentle parenting is just yet another fad - and it only makes for hard work. You cannot enjoy being with your kiddies if you are in a permanent state of exhaustion.

Interesting, as mine always went down with no bother, but I don't know how much it depends on the child. I shall watch with interest with my new grandchild, born yesterday, as DD is similar to me in some respects. She has a young stepdaughter but didn't raise her from a baby

My one year old gson has started waking up several times in night now.

The latest fashionable term for that according to my daughter is "separation anxiety".

Too much fuss and spoiling made of children nowadays.

I also, button it because any advice falls on deaf ears and know it all remarks.

Manxgirl my daughter has done exactly the same and although she only has one son aged 12 now he is her top priority over and above her career, husband and family. I do love him but he is very demanding and sulky and spoils family occasions with his demands. I do say the odd thing but DD is very defensive and doesn't like me saying anything so I try not to but DH lets me hear all about it when we get home!!!

Is it possible for the children to stay with you? Only suggestion I have. Patterns of behaviour are difficult to break if there is no willingness to change.

I don't understand if it's a need of the parent or child for this very close style of parenting, seems to be usual nowadays.
Think you can only offer to help and do what you can without upsetting the apple cart
Lips get so sore from bitten I know.

We have a really beautiful and intelligent niece born to older parents and the only Grandchild on the Brides side. She has been seriously indulged and it has made her a pain.
She has to have her own way and be the centre of attention and won't do what she is told without being told over and over again.
As a Mother of lots of grown up DCs, it is laughable watching her parents attempt to get her to do anything they say.
I am very fond of her though and she does as she is told with me.
She was crayoning recently and I sat beside her and she said to me ' sit here, and you can pass me the colours as I need them' Mmmm, that was never going to happen!!!

You say they are very clingy and prone to tantrums - this says to me that they are probably in need of the comfort of boundaries, which from your post, your DD is not giving them!

My own experience is now so far distant in time that I don't really have anything more to offer. I know of the resentment when as a GP you try to help, and sometimes wonder whether my DD had it too much her own way though not through her demanding it at the time. I was in an unhappy marriage and on the one hand made the mistake of perhaps expecting to be her friend, yet on the other hand I felt there was a balance in my parenting as I established an acceptable routine where bedtime was at 6 (until she was old enough to know better!)and half an hour spent reading to/with her once she was in bed, and that was it. No night problems - but perhaps I was just lucky in that.

I was a somewhat 'older' parent and perhaps because of this could foresee many day to day problems in advance, and be pro-active in preventing them; that meant she had an easy run and it probably coloured her outlook later on. Also there was no sibling to rub her corners off...

So I'm inclined to think along the lines of you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't...

I think you've just got to hang in there, never close the door to her, and never act in a way that would make her shut the door on you. Painful, but do-able.

This is why so many of today's children are spoilt, ill mannered brats, because their parents became doormats to them.
Young parents need to realise they are in charge, not the children and bedtime is bedtime, in their own beds!

Not that you can say it to her though!

Basic rule no matter what: no one from one generation should ever interfere between others who are of the same or a closer generation. Eg child should never come between parents, grandparent between parent and child. Generational boundaries are good ones to adhere to and breaching them causes no end of trouble. Advice (I prefer the term 'opinion') is fine if asked for but unwelcome if there's ever the expectation that it will be followed. I never cease to be amazed at the ways in which people behave destructively to others in their families 'with the best of intentions'.

When I read a bedtime story to the youngest one, it was generally me who fell asleep!

My DM was born in 1906 and not a bit like that annsixty
However, MIL, born a bit later, most definitely was.