Advice needed for those who have had sons

Sorry - the title should say FROM those who have sons - don't know how to get this changed.

"Things" are very important to twelve year old boys. Are they poor? Could they afford to give him similar things to his mates? He could be feeling left behind.

I wouldn't rush to get outside help. It's a funny age. They should be able to handle it. Perhaps you could be reassuring to them?

Does he have plenty of inter-action with his dad? Do they do things together. Share interests. At that age a boy's dad need to be his best mate.

I can suggest a few things. It is difficult to know which would be best from just a post on the internet.
[speaking from my experience of my own boys, and limited knowledge of a number of boys that have been fostered].

Going down the professional route may be the best way to go.
If not CAHMS in the first instance, then a talk through with the GP.

Lots of talk with no recriminations. Even lots of hugs if he would accept them.

I dont like to say this, but is there any possibility of abuse at all? Sexual or otherwise? Even from many years back?
It doesnt sound like it might have happened at school. But at home, activities, etc?

Soem children who are very sad, like to get out some of their anger by using a punch bag. Or having it suggested to them that people get angry sometimes, even adults, and punching a pillow can be a good idea.

I dont know how long ago his anger started and how long ago someone spoke to school. But always worth asking at school again, just in case someone has noticed something that wasnt spotted before.

His want for material things may suggest that he has low self esteem.
It is worth thinking back as to whether he has always been a bit like this, or whether it has been gradual, or whether it happened suddenly.

I agree about the hormones kicking in part. If this is left longer, it is only likely to get worse.

Not sure why you think it's a boy thing Mishap - what you have described could equally well apply to a girl, I think.
How do your DD and her husband handle his behaviour? Verbal and physical aggression aren't acceptable from any age - I don't have any suggestions I'm afraid, but the lad has to be made aware somehow of the effect it's having on the rest of you.
You say he comes across as deeply sad - depression isn't unknown in children and adolescents, and if he's depressed, he needs help from the best source you have locally. It must be quite frightening for his younger siblings.

One on one time can be helpful too.
I had several children, and from time to time, my husband and I, either seperately or together, would spend time with just the one child.
It was quite amazing what could come out of that.
When there is no other sibling around, they naturally tended to open up more. Particularly if something was troubling them.
Even if there wasnt, it was nice to hear all about their friend, or what they were up to at school, or what they were realising they liked etc.
I found taking them out shopping, just the one child, or say, playing a sport outside, just them, eg mini tennis or basketball, gave them a chance to open up more.
Obviously this worked just as well with boys as girls.

Seems like his hormones are already beginning to kick in. First things first though - the physical aggression needs to be nipped in the bud smartish. Feeling sad and being unable to express it can lead to angry outbursts, and his physical aggression will only make him feel worse afterwards. Poor lad sounds confused, but I think it might be a good idea to handle this in the family for a while and see how it goes. He needs lots of reassurances and chat, whilst holding firm boundaries around his outbursts.

Thank you for all your ideas.

They are not poor in fact and he has the same "things" as his peers in the main. He gets lots of time with his Dad as they both share a sports interest and have even been on a trip abroad with just the two of them to pursue this.

These problems have been going on for some years now - since he was about 6 I would say. There is no obvious problem at school - he has just started secondary school and things have been slightly worse since then, but it has gone on through primary school. He says he likes his school and he is doing reasonably well - he has had the chance to take up new sports and he likes this.

Their home circumstances and housing market problems mean that things are a bit cramped at home for the size of family and it is difficult for him to have any private or quiet time; and for everyone else to get away from his outbursts.

They have tried lots of strategies to deal with the problem - isolating him till he calms down (although that is not easy in their home), trying to reason with him, withdrawal of privileges (which precipitates more outbursts).

I am as worried about his siblings as I am about him. And also concerned that I am being asked to help, but am treading on eggshells as I feel I cannot say anything that might imply a criticism of parenting. I too am in a bind here, and am not at my best currently. But I cannot turn away and do nothing. I love them all and want the best for them.

Jane - I suppose that I saw it as a boy thing as we had nothing remotely like this from our DDs, and certainly not physical aggression.

I agree about the hormones kicking in. How does he stand with his peer group at school and does he have a social life outside school? Could he be suffering from low self-esteem? I don't feel as if I can be a lot of help really, as I have a son but he was away at school most of the time he was in his teens. However, my daughter, who had a good circle of friends at school, never felt she was good enough at anything (she was good at most things) and it tended to make her hard to live with for a while, until she grew out of it. I feel for you and hope you find a solution to your problem. Has anyone talked to his teachers?

Are you absolutely sure you are not dealing with a boy with Aspergers syndrome? This boy sounds very like an older version of my 6year old GS, who is very bright and a lovely boy. He doesn't have many problems at school when things are going well. He did throw his lunch across the dining room when the quiche didn't taste like his mum's. He also peed all round the boys toilets when some other boys were teasing him. He has outbursts at home where he will kick, nip, scratch and hit whoever is in the firing line. I have been on the receiving end more than once! He was diagnosed with Aspergers in the summer and my DD has been given strategies for dealing with his behaviour at home which are very helpful. It took several visits to the GP to get a referral for him to be assessed but finally having a diagnosis was a relief.
Does he have any sensory problems? My GS never liked the wind or the sound of it and would cover his ears when he was very small. Now he cannot stand shopping malls etc and takes his ear defenders if it is going to be noisy.
I hope this longish post is helpful and you manage to sort him out. (I know you shouldn't have favourites, but this boy is mine).

He's the oldest child and has been tending to behave this way for 6 years? Is there anything that could have triggered it? He sounds deeply unhappy.
I really feel for you, but my only experience is that DDS was a very unhappy teenager with a short fuse, but not physically aggressive. Many years later she said she was terribly bullied at school- made me feel awful and very sad for ages. If only I'd known at the time.
Is is possible he's being bullied at school or on Facebook etc?

I have just chatted with his mum on the phone.

She describes his behaviour as being very difficult from birth - with incessant screaming, violent tantrums as a toddler (which she can now see were over the top as she has other children to compare with), and on-going problems with temper control throughout his whole life.

She is beating herself up with guilt as the pregnancy was unexpected and she was on Prozac for several of the first weeks of pregnancy - and also admits to having got "wasted" a few times before she realised she was pregnant. She thinks that this, and the later pregnancy problems, have caused him to have "wiring faults" from birth. I have tried to reassure her and put that into perspective, as many mothers will have drunk alcohol and been on an anti-depressant in the early weeks without detriment to the baby. And as soon as she realised she was pregnant she went off the tablets and did all the right things.

I have suggested they should seek outside advice as to how to handle him, rather than dragging him along for tests initially. Hopefully there will be an educational psychologist who is attached to the school.

One thing is clear is that Mum thinks he is sad and needs gentle handling; but Dad thinks he should be punished - I have been clear that they need to pull together with the same strategies (which I think in the main they do) - but the underlying nature of the problem (naughty vs ill/sad) is a bone of contention and the child must be aware of that.

What a sad situation for them all.

I dont think cramped home conditions help him.
Does he have his own distinct private space that he can go to if he wants to?
Even say a garden shed might help.
If he doesnt have space, it isnt going to be long before he stays away from home, maybe staying for longer at friends houses, staying longer in town centres etc.

Other thoughts.
Did he accept his siblings?
Does he have some thoughts, rightly or wrongly, that his mum doesnt love him? Perhaps she made a comment somewhere along the way that he took wrongly, or has stuck with him.

I do think he has low self esteem deep down.

x post.
Off to read.

I agree they need professional advice. And gentle handling.

Sorry Mishap, I meant to say that when GS1 started school, (before diagnosis) his teacher, and the head both thought that he was an anxious, sad little boy!! He sometimes comes across like this at home but knowing him tells you that he is not. It is his difficulty with processing information and dealing with his senses. He will go off to his room and appear to be sad, but this is just while his brain assimilates all the information. He is soon back to his normal little self. My DD calls this his "time out" and will sometimes send him to his room when he appears to be getting over stimulated. On these occasions he has been known to trash his room. Afterwards he is asked to tidy it up again, and he usually does so with good grace as he knows he's been silly.
Sorry for going on so, but I hope this is helpful.

Mishap I have found over the years with my own DSs and DGSs that the ages between 12/15 are very hard for boys and take you to hell & back sometimes,is he a "young" 12 if so he may be finding it hard to ajust to senior school and is in the process of finding his "place" within the school year.I found that DS1 had no problems at all but DS2 found it hard to ajust to bigger boys being in his orbit he found it hard to cope with until he was about 13 then all slotted into place.
All my DGs have had outside activities a couple of nights a week coupled with homework so they had no time to contemplate what others had and they didn't, they where also close together in age,is there a big age gap in your GS and his siblings ?
I would tend to chat to the Pastoral Care at School and see if they can shed any light on things and don't worry this will not have any effect on his schooling or reports they have come across this kind of thing many times before and know which way to guide parents.

My DS got more sad and grumpy as he grew into teenagehood. (We backed onto overgrown woodland and when things got really bad he would take off into the wood with a small axe and give a tree hell.) I couldn't get to the bottom of it and I got very worried when he said he didn't want to live.

His teachers thought he was doing ok - jogging along in the middle of the class - and he had a close friend with his own problems and I learned later they were very supportive of each other.

He was useless at sports and games - couldn't run very fast - a bit on the short and chunky side (this changed in his mid-teens when he suddenly beanpoled), and eventually when he was about 12/13 I discovered he was being bullied at school. Nothing extreme, just generally being permenantly picked on.

So I sent him to judo classes - where no one knew him - and his confidence grew. He no longer avoided the boys who were picking on him, instead waited his moment and caught the ringleader. Apparently he flattened the lad against the wall and scared him rigid! It only took the once! After that he was much happier!

DS didn't consider that he was being bullied, just couldn't understand why no one liked him. He had friends at scouts, but they avoided him at school which left him confused. That with raging hormones....!

I don't know if this helps - just may be a possibility.

Nfk Judo & Karate membership was the best money I have ever spent on our DSs & DGSs.

I do appreciate all your suggestions.

I do not think there is any bullying at school - he seems to have settled in very well. He has made lots of new friends, some of whom are within walking distance of his home (which is a flat by the way with mezzanine bedrooms - that is part of the problem), and he is starting to see them outside of school a bit.

He is very handsome indeed and very very good at sport - in fact HE is the cool dude on the block rather than being the also-ran. It may be that this is a hard position to feel he has to sustain and that this is one of his stressors.

He says he has a girlfriend at school, but he is pre-pubertal and in many ways very naive - he still believed in Father Christmas until his Mum made sure he knew the truth during last summer in preparation for secondary school. He is a funny mixture of little boy and cool dude - which is a bit teenager-like I realise.

I suppose the worrying thing is that this has been going on for so many years and maybe cannot simply be put down to his age - as he has been doing it at every age so far.

I hate to see them all sad and under stress.

I think he did used to do karate but I think he may have stopped that now.

As I said earlier, he sounds just like an older version of our little Aspie. He has loads of friends, is very handsome and gets invited to every party going. The last birthday party he was invited to was at a bowling alley. My DD declined the invitation and explained GS's problems to the parent. She will only allow him to go to parties at the child's house, where the sensory stimuli will be less.

Mishap I've pm'd you

I think the same as Hilda [my DGS is the same] and it sounds exactly like the boy you talk about Mishap. This problem won't go away.He needs to see the GP and probably CAMHS [ I know how you feel about CAMHS, me too, but needs must.] medication and careful handling and understanding are the only ways forward.