Halal and Kosher meat

I absolutely agree Jinglbellsfrock. It is beyond me as to WHY these groups need to slaughter their animals that way. I know they did in Biblical times, but that was the only way then. In modern times we all understand animal suffering and that slaughter MUST be as free from suffering as possible. If this method is in the name of Al###h, then you know what that person can do, and the sooner the better!!!

religious practice is no excuse for animal cruelty full stop.

I think we kid ourselves if we think the only issue that mars the issue of rearing animals for food is the way in which they are slaughtered. For one thing, some animals hardly have a life, e.g. lambs. The conditions under which many animals live are pretty horrible and I think the outcry about Halal and Kosher meat could be better directed at the whole issue of intensive farming. Being "humanely" slaughtered is, by all accounts, not a very pleasant thing either.

If we really took the issue of animal welfare seriously and avoided intensively farmed meat, that would mean consumers having to pay more for their meat. Most would be unwilling to put their money where their mouth is.

Speaking as someone who used to have a small flock of sheep and produced lambs for meat, I can assure you that my animals welfare was the most important thing, and this applied right up to and including slaughter.

In total agreement Eloethan. I am willing to pay more for meat reared in humane way. Trouble is some halal meat finds it's way into the general,food outlets. I believe the move is to make it illegal to slaughter halal meat which hasn't been stunned first, as in Denmark. I'm not sure what kind of people work in slaughter houses and how careful they are during the stunning process.

I hate to think of all those terrified and bewildered animals strung up ready to be slaughtered by whatever means. Think I'll go back to being vegetarian.

You'd be surprised how many offenders with convictions for violence have experience of working in a slaughterhouse earlier in their lives. I don't know if slaughterhouse employers exclude people with certain convictions for violence. I would certainly want to know a lot more before employing them. As others have said ill-treatment of animals isn't confined to halal and kosher practices. Apparently, halal slaughter of chickens is gentler than other methods.

Jingle

Forgive me raising this point but I know you are not 'precious' about who has raised threads and I am only mentioning a thread I raised before to agree with you.

I do not know how to 'bump' a thread if that is the correct term.

I raised the exact point on a thread headed Halal Meat on Thursday, 10th May 2012, yes 2012. I put it on the Am I Being Unreasonable forum.

Briefly I was upset at the time because a Conservative MP had 'LOST' a Motion in Parliament to get Halal Meat produce labelled as such for the purchaser to know under what conditions the meat they buy was slaughtered.

At that time Bill Reilly, a former President of the Vetinary Association said "Killing conscious animals by slitting their throats caused distress and pain.

I watched the debate live on t.v. and I was amazed that some partisan MP,s even had the cheek to make out the subject was 'racist'. Obviously the fact he lost the Motion then means unless MP's have had a change of heart then little will change, or if it does then some will be hypocrites, nothing new then.

I did not at that time, nor do I now understand if our law states it is MANDATORY to stun an animal before slaughter how we are still, almost 2. years later having to raise the question.

Animal cruelty is abhorrent and should never be allowed under the veil of religious rights.

There is a very good middle way nowadays, which is totally acceptable to the Islamic Foundation and the Halal food authority, and that is electrical stunning. The Koran says animals must be bled before death- electrical stunning renders the animal unconscious for long enough, without killing- and therefore totally OK with many Muslims. But it is taking a long time to be accepted by more traditional Muslim groups. Here in Switzerland, it is illegal to kill the Halal or Kosher way unless the animal is stunned electrically (stunning with a blow on the head is NOT allowed by the Koran)- same in some other European countries.

I feel there is a much better chance of this being acceptable in the UK too, rather than a total ban which is bound to be seen as just another racist stance on Islam.

This link is from the site of an Halal organic butcher company in the UK:
Abraham natural produce. Providing the electric stun is calculated just right, the animal will be rendered unconscious for a short period, during which time the throat is cut. According to Islamic law, this is perfectly acceptable for Halal, and imho, an excellent compromise. There is absolutely nothing in the Qu'ran against this.

"The Arguments
Some of the reasoning used by voices against stunning is based around the following ayat of the Quran:
"Forbidden to you (for food) are dead animal, blood, the flesh of swine, and that over which has been invoked other than the name of Allah, that which has been killed by strangling or by a violent blow or by a headlong fall or by being gored to death, that which has been partly eaten by a wild animal, unless you are able to slaughter (in due form), and that which is sacrificed on stone (altars)." (5:3)
The authorities argue that:
1) Research has shown that animals can and do die from stunning. If an animal dies because of stunning it is haram to eat. As we can't be 100% sure that the animal was alive at the time of slaughter we should then avoid all stunned meat.
We are partly in agreement. However, as we work in an abattoir we know from first hand experience that it is impossible for a lamb to die from a low voltage stun. In addition, if we follow the logic that because an animal may "possibly die" before slaughter we should not eat it, then why do we not also apply that logic to the person slaughtering the animal? They "possibly" did not follow the correct procedures for the slaughtering in terms of carrying it out properly and as a result we should consider the meat as haram. In fact the chances of this happening are higher than an animal dying from stunning.
2) The ayah says, "forbidden to you is the blood to consume." The halal authorities state that blood is dangerous if left inside the meat. Stunning can cause more blood to stay in the animal if the animal dies before being slaughtered.
Again, this is only applicable to an animal that dies before slaughter. It is not applicable to those that are still alive with hearts pumping when slaughtered meaning the blood runs free from the animal just as it would if it were alive. Furthemore, there is independent research to suggest the bleeding of stunned animals is equal to those on un-stunned.
3) The ayah says, "and an animal killed by a violent blow". This is compared to the act of stunning an animal and therefore invalidates it being halal.
Anyone who works in an abattoir will tell you that when you stun a lamb, there is absolutely no "blow" as this would make it impossible to stun it. The tongs must be carefully placed on the head otherwise they would not stay there."

The key is therefore for the electric stun to be strong enough to render the animal unconscious for just long enough, but not to kill - and as such is totally acceptable according to the Qu'ran - and in my view the best compromise possible.

One law for all. No religious exceptions. I agree with the President of the BVA.

Granjura

That is my point. As far as I can see it is the same in the UK as it is in Switzerland.

It is MANDATORY to stun an animal before it is slaughtered. It is our law too.

That's what I understood too. But not what the article says... nor the Head of the BVA. It seems that authorities in the UK close a blind eye to such practices, and it really should insist on electrical stunning.

thatbags I agree with your post totally,also with AKA and in any case I think all food practises to do with religion are just strange.Time that there was good animal welfare [most in UK are but not all, think Bernard Matthews chickens and turkeys.]That includes slaughter, as quick and humane as is possible.Religion has no place in animal welfare or ethics.

This is England and cruelty to animals is against the law. and halal methods are cruel by any standards. It should be outlawed immediately - END OF! If this sounds racist, then tough!

One Law for all, I agree. But if it can be done, in a way which is approved and acceptable for the Islamic Foundation and Halal Foor authorities- then why not- a much better way forwards. It is already happening to some extent in the UK (see my previous link) and in other European countries.

I have never understood why I would be prosecuted for cruelty if I cut an animal's throat without stunning it first, yet Halal butchers are allowed to do it. Just as I have never understood why I would be prosecuted for keeping a Budgie in a cage too small for it to stretch its wings, yet battery cages are still used.

Britain!

Or why people would choose to buy animals reared liked this, yet they do.

I suspect that cost comes into it – in the buying of food so produced, that is. Also ignorance, wilful or otherwise. Food labelling is a minefield and it is difficult to know exactly what you are buying even when something is well labelled. For example, I didn't know until relatively recentyly that "free range" on pork does not really mean what I understand as free range. Ditto for chicken/eggs. The labelling definition of "free range" is obtuse. That is wrong.

Not just ignorance. The sad truth is, most people just don't care where their food comes from. They have no interest in farm animal welfare. That's why so few people bother to buy free range eggs. Most people will always go for the cheapest option, whether they can afford more or not.

There is a huge choice in supermarkets so there must be a sizeable group of people who do care what they eat and how it is produced, and who choose carefully.

I believe I read somewhere after Pogs brought this up before, that in the UK 85% of Halal meat is stunned before slaughter. Kosher meat on the other hand cannot be stunned as it may leave a bruise and Kosher carcasses must be perfect and unmarked.

In this day and age and in this country I think this is all nonsense. In the medieval Middle East, lacking refrigeration or electricity I can understand why the relious leaders of the time came up with such rules. But that was then. There is no need to go to such ridiculous in humane lengths in the 21st century.

Yes I don't disagree bags that there is a sizeable group that do care, but I still believe the vast majority of people simply don't care. I have had discussions with friends who quite openly tell me they don't actually care. And no it's not because I'm trying to convert them, it's usually because they have brought it up and asked me why I became vegetarian. I have one friend in particular like this and I have to close my eyes to that aspect of her personality. In my view, someone who doesn't care about the suffering of a fellow creature, in life or in death, is slightly less than human.