What would you do if you were Italy?

Well if Italy refuses the Royal Navy permission to use their sea territory they'll have to find another warship to assist in the rescue of refugees as HMS Bulwark is currently doing.

I wouldn't want to indulge in UK bashing on the basis of an assumption.

It isn't an assumption merlot an Italian spokesman said that is what will happen if the UK doesn't assist in taking it's quota of refugees.

Rules? What are rules?

EU does not abide by them, French stick their fingers to their noses!

The Greeks bent the rules to get in.

'Uman nature a'int it

Yes but doesn't answer the question - what would you do if you were Italy?

I think it is very hard for any country which is inundated with refugees. Surely we should all do what we can to help those who arrive but also be doing something to prevent so many coming as there must be a limit to how many we can absorb?

Each one who gets a better life by paying to get on one of those boats will encourage others to do the same. Couldn't we instead help them to improve their lives in the countries they come from?

What are the implications of us stopping the boats leaving Africa and turning them back instead of helping them come to the EU?

Perhaps quotas would be a good idea in the short term but not a longterm solution but how would you calculate the quotas? Would it be on the size of the country, the country's economy, the population? I wouldn't like to decide.

If I was Italy, I would ask around the world, and see if there are any countries that would like to take them.

Oh gawd - don't talk about turning back the boats - that's what our loathsome Tory PM of Australia, Tony Abbott is doing. In fact evidence is growing that he is organising payment to people smugglers to take their boats and human cargo, and go back to where they set off from, i.e. Indonesia. The Indonesians are furious, they are calling Australia on hypocrisy, and the Australian people are being deceived into thinking it is illegal to seek asylum, and that these boat people are queue jumpers, when there is no 'queue'.

It is all a horrible mess.

But people are being hurt, displaced, tortured and murdered - they have no choice but to flee.

We do have room here, but any political party that says so, will never get elected. Only the Greens dare say it.

There is no answer I can think of, except that the whole civilised world is going to have to take their share of refugees, or entirely lose any moral credibility. Italy is right to ask for help. Their authorities are much better on human rights and ethical treatment of boat people than my adopted country, Australia. I feel shame. Especially as my new daughter in law who is ethnically Cantonese, is the daughter of boat people fleeing the collapse of Saigon in the 1970s. They were allowed to settle here, and have produced beautiful, talented children. My dil is a hospital scientist: she is beautiful and kind, and we love her so very much.

But we would not have her, if the boats had been turned back.

Italy is a NATO member and as such, I can't see how it can refuse to allow another NATO member access to its waters. I can see how desperate they must be getting, and short of providing a full naval blockade to turn these boats back, it's difficult to see what else can be done. As for helping these people in their own countries to have a better life, many of them seem to be fleeing from backward looking regimes which make that betterment a pipe dream.

Joan - well said.

I can't find any reference to this threat by Italy on the internet, whitewave - where did you come across it?

I think the issue is far more complicated than the UK (along with other EU countries) refusing to accept its quota of refugees.

I read in the DT that Italy have threatened to refuse HMS Bulwark permission to land any migrants in Italy that it has picked up at sea, meaning, presumably, that they would be stuck on board until they could be landed somewhere else - which would be here in the UK I suppose. If the Royal Navy were obliged by the Italians to pull out of this humanitarian mission to stop boatloads of people from drowning, are the Italian Navy going to send their ships out? Doesn't seem likely.

I heard in on R4 Ana

I think that because we have opted out of the Schengen Agreement we can legally refuse to take any of these refugees whitewave although whether we should do morally is another question. I wonder if this will give a little more insight - I am still scratching my head after reading it.

A thought popped into my head although I have a feeling it's a really bad one but I will put it forward and see what you think. Firstly, the best place for all these people is back in their own country and letting them wander all over Europe is not solving the basic problems. We really need to address how we are going to help with this. I don't want us to get embroiled but I have a feeling that we either do so by choice or we will be doing so with our backs against the wall.

Meanwhile, and this is the bit which I have a feeling is pretty outrageous, how about setting up proper camps in Greece, making it clear that while we will rescue people we will not let them go any further and we intend them to go back when it is safe, and all other EU countries pay Greece for this.

I am hoping someone will come up with a good solution, maybe Gracegran's would work, I don't know. I do think we can't just let it go on and on because it is bound to deplete the countries these people come from. If we assume it is the better educated and hence better paid, who are able to fund these journeys what sort of chaos are they leaving behind?

We are going to a Greek island at the end of July and know there are refugees there and have read that some people have set up organisations to help them. I emailed our hotel to ask if they could direct us to such an organisation and their reply sounded like a stock answer to people who were worried rather than wanted to help. Our plan is to take things for the children as it was not their choice (right or wrong) to make the journey.

Given that we are constantly told what a great collective force the EU is, it's pretty astounding that there isn't a joined up approach from them on how to deal with this problem, it's been going on for quite a while now. Most member states seem to be passing the buck, leaving Italy and Greece, the latter with it's own insoluble problems, to get on with it. Clearly some of the migrants are desperate, Syrians particularly they will surely be killed if they stay there, so morally we have a duty. Similarly Sudanese and Eritreans, I believe, both live under repressive regimes. However, I'm not sure every African that arrives in Europe is leaving for the same reasons, some are without a doubt economic migrants, Ghanians? correct me if I'm wrong I thought Ghana was reasonably stable. I have also heard that as far as Africa is concerned it is the middle classes that are leaving, if that is the case surely their skills are needed at home. At what point does the flow of economic migrants to Europe become unsustainable, after all if that premise was taken to a conclusion, possibly, in time they would follow the example of those that have gone and the trickle would become a constant flow, surely Europe is not in a position to absorb such numbers.

My other thoughts are when I hear the interviews with the migrants most of them want to come to the richer northern parts of Europe, maybe in some cases because they have family there, but not all of them will and I don't think they should be given the opportunity to cherry pick. A lot of Eastern Europe have smaller populations and I think they should be expected to take their fair share and introduce a bit of much needed racial diversity to those parts. I also think places like Australia, yes I know about Tony Abbott's stance and New Zealand, our NZ friends tell us they take very few and Canada, all fairly under populated could take a few more too.

I think Italy have been marvellous with what they've done so far. They have had an immigrant problem for years with beggars outside every church and pickpockets on the trains but they are still putting themselves out to rescue these people and bring them ashore. Imagine thousands of refugees suddenly turning up on the Isle of White because that's what Lampedusa must feel like. Something needs to be done to help move these people on though. Some of the comments from Italians on Facebook are becoming very antagonistic and suggesting drowning as a solution.

ana it was on radio 4 this morning after 8am.. He did say that they would never turn anyone away. I am sure that there are a lot more to come.

I do wonder that this trouble will get worse. It needs far more effort put into the whole mess than anyone seems willing to give. This should include the UN as well as the EU, as many countries - particularly the west are complicate in what has happened to many of the countries from which the refugees are coming.

Worse case scenario is that they get returned or ignored on the high seas - I can't see how anyone could morally do that.

complicit!! not complicate - I seem to go into automatic pilot at times.

On the lunchtime news it said that UK was exempt from taking any of these refugees as was Ireland and I think Denmark - certainly a third country. They did not say why.
I agree there needs to be some sort of summit to try and get a plan of action. Those who have been interviewed do not seem to want to just have temporary asylum and go home if/when things settle down again but all have said they wish to stay in Europe because it is a much better place to live. Some have family already in Europe - one man wanted to get to Holland to join family. It is a sorry state of affairs as is the camp of migrants outside Calais. They have started trying to get on moving lorries on the road into the port - we have seen gendarmes and CRS en masse leaping out of cars and searching the lorries and hauling them off. There are big the red camps again and of course no facilities but I think they do get one meal a day. Calais cannot continue to support them and neither can Dover - - a huge problem still.

I read somewhere that Greece is worried sick for its tourist industry, because holidaymakers are starting to complain about the numbers of begging immigrants and camps set up where they 'can be seen'!

I just think, supposing one day I am a refugee and in trouble.

Then I start to think - the way all these dictators behave, at some point all those African countries will be completely deserted, the inhabitants will all be in Europe!

However, no government can conjure jobs for anyone out of this air. They need help, but they also need protection from racists. Italy has lots of space, but they don't have enough money. No matter how kind many of their citizens are, I don't think they would take kindly to being told that jobs have to go to refugees any more than other countries at present. I don't envy the politicians.

I think that the traffickers are letting people think there are plenty of jobs and they will be welcomed with open arms in European countries and many of them speak English or French and so those two places are an obvious draw to them. People will always believe what they want to believe and it will take a long time for the message to get through that there are not lots of jobs and not enough housing for everyone in those countries already.
They also mentioned at lunch time that another idea was to sink or set fire to the boats the traffickers were planning to use to stop some of the flow. Huge problem with no easy answer.

Yes janer i dont envy any politician, whether right or left, having to make decisions about this crisis. And it is a crisis, we just havent felt the full effects of it here yet. Undoubtedly there are many tragic stories of persecution, abuse, and each one gets my sympathy but we cannot, as Europe, accept every person who wants to come to here. I feel uncomfortable saying this, and will perhaps get criticism and perhaps suggestions of UKIP style beliefs, but this is far from the truth. Not all of the people crammed on the boats are fleeing persecution, many just want a better lie, and who can blame them? I did see one English woman on BBC news talking about her nephew who was feared drowned in one of the bigger boat sinkings off Italy, very very sad, but he was a talented young footballer from Ghana.....not the same as a pregnant woman risking her childrens lives by fleeing from Syria. Please dont think I am awarding some kind of points system for the refugees, but in our hearts of hearts, surely we must acknowledge that no country can cope with such an influx, specially Italy and Greece with their own economic problems. I dont have an answer, other than perhaps destroying the boats to stop the smuggglers using them again. I agree that there is the other dimension of what is almost a 'brain drain' from some areas in Africa, the huge amounts of money paid to the smugglers, often many thousands of pounds must surely be beyond the reach of poor Africans?

I read this article on another forum. Briefly it blames the West's efforts to counteract famine in some African countiries for their over-population and continuing state of food shortage. Interfering with natural evolution:
africaunauthorised.com/?p=1311
But doesn't give any answers how to deal with the current crisis.
As for top level meetings, I thought they had already had one or two?

Am I right in thinking that people wanting to leave their countries has come about because the USA Government, under President Obama, is not willing to intervene like it used to?
So that the ordinary people are now too scared to live in their countries, and would rather risk death in leaving?