Everything to do with the attacks

There was a point Anniebach wanted to mention. I am happy to answer but I am going out for most of the day.

There were a few other points on the other thread too, that posters could discuss.

Thoughts are still very much with the people and families involved, in Paris and worldwide.

Let's look at the word nothing as well. Someone somewhere will no doubt say that such terrorist attacks are nothing to do with Islam.

I would agree that nothing about such attacks has anything to do with most (the vast, vast majority of) Muslims. However, I wouldn't say that Islamic Jihad, which is what is driving such attacks, has nothing to do with Islam.

That would be like saying the medieval crusades and the Inquisition had nothing to do with Christianity, which would clearly be silly.

Anniebach's post yesterday
Alan Henning was warned not to go there, but he certaintly didn't deserve to die for doing what he thought would help people, neither did those working for MSF deserve to die, but no great outcry over America bombing a hospital then saying - sorry, it was a mistake.

All killing is wrong, why is killing of innocent people in the west so very wrong but killing innocent people in the middle east justified

My opinion is this. If I was living in a country where those around me were killing, slautering, raping, kidnapping etc etc other people, I would realise and be happy for other countries to come in and try and stop them, even if that meant that innocent people got killed as well. And even and sometimes by accident.
How else would they be stopped?

I think I agree thatbags.

But also think that it should be said time and time again, over and over, [as you did] that it has nothing to do with the vast vast majority of muslims.

Is it usual for people in Paris, or elsewhere for that matter, to routinely carry around their passports?
nigglynellie mentioned that she would be happy to carry an ID card. How usual are those elsewhere? I somehow thought that they were more or less obsolete in most countries. Though anything can be brought back again.

A quote from Maajid Nawaz of the Quilliam foundation.

No insurgency is sustainable, or even possible, without a level of residual support for it's ideological aims among the core communities from which it drawers it's fighters.

This is no surprise to me. Exactly what I've always thought.

I agree that the vast majority of Muslims are as shocked and outraged by these attacks as the rest of us.

However, are they doing enough to stop the radicalisation that is happening? The Mosques must teach that Islam is a peaceful religion, the Imams should be confronting hate preachers publically at their meetings. Everyone should speak with those who begin to show signs of radicalisation, parents should be having discussions with their children about the dangers of believing the twisted version of Islam.

Alan Hemmings lived not far from me, I know the area he and his family live in well as I often worked there. It's not a wealthy area. Can I repeat what I've said on other threads when people have commented that Alan "was warned not to go there". Making comments like that, even with the caveat that he didn't deserve to die as he did, are victim blaming of the first order. There have been endless discussions on gransnet about the need not to blame victims but the put responsibility where it lies, with the perpetrator. Yellow ribbons are currently being worn to commemorate Alan . Let him rest in peace and his family continue to mourn without making comments that put a level of self responsibility on him for his death.

The quote from Maajid Nawaz resonates with me. As with the IRA and the Unionist terrorists, there will be those living within Muslim communities who have sympathy with some of those who want a caliphate.

How about this thought?

That hasnt got anything to do with extremism from some? sunni muslims to do with the Koran, has it?

I know Sadam Hussein was evil, but the war on Iraq was barely legal. It stirred up more hatred and further destabilsed the whole area which already had many problems.

Just removing a tyrannical leader from one regime will rarely solve any complicated situation.

America in particular has had a particularly unfavourable influence on many wars since the end of WW2.
Think of Vietnam where they interefered and killed many in south east Asia and had to eventually admit defeat. That sort of behaviour caused an awful lot of resentment.

Think of the British involvement and brutality in the Empire years. It achieved nothing but the plunder of the empires colonial lands and resources.
It was not more military force that improved the troubles in Northern Ireland but negotiation. Tryimg to talk with your enemies not killing them.

This is Christopher Hitchens' answer to that sort of thought, that sort of accusation, nelliem. Worth a listen. It's an interesting point of view.

There is also the fact that most of the victims of Islamic Jihadist violence are Muslims.

stb It is routine to carry 'papers' in France - ID's or Passports if a migrant.

thank you ffinnochio. I havent been to France in recent years.
So that only applies to migrants, not permanent residents?

stb this is from wiki:
The French national identity card (French: Carte nationale d’identité sécurisée or CNIS) is an official identity document consisting of a laminated plastic card bearing a photograph, name and address. While the identity card is non-compulsory, all persons must possess some form of valid government-issued identity documentation.[1]

As I'm not French, I always carry my passport, as all non-French nationals are required to do. Following 13.11 everyone must carry identity papers at all times.

Every western nation possessing any semblance of an airforce, should, in the next few weeks, put planes in the air to bomb the buggers off the face of the earth. Time to protect our own.

(This posted by a gran with a grandson due to go to Paris on school trip next summer)

And what of the children jingle ? bomb the little buggers off the face of the earth ?

Well, I certainly think that something will happen now Jingl but it needs a lot of countries to come together on it.

It can't simply be bombs, it will need a lot of trrops.

Troops!

And while I'm here, I the 'games' threads on Gransnet could have stopped for a few hours yesterday. Shame on you.

We have to on technology now ab. Ours is pretty good. And that of the US usually. (Yes. I know the hospital happened) But there is no perfect answer. Sadly.