DS

He can support his mate without joining him in any planned retaliation. Why was he beaten up, anyway? Was it entirely unprovoked, or the result of a difference of opinion? Could his friend avoid the gang in future, or is he intending a showdown? He and your son are in danger of becoming part of the neighbourhood gang warfare if they are considering a tit-for-tat.

I hope you blew up too when he told you that you were a useless etc. That is no way to talk to his mother, and if you take it once you will continue to take it. It is one thing to be all "teenage moody" but he could stay reasonably polite. Abusing his mother is no way to react to his friend's problems.

Seventeen is old enough to see things from someone else's point of view. I understand him wanting to help his mate - and I am sure you do as well - but does he understand that violence can be turned onto his family if he gets involved, and that you have had enough of violence and aggression from your ex-neighbour?

Is he aware of everything you have had to put up with there, and of how helpless an older person (one who is not in the full strength of their young manhood, as he is) can feel when confronted by aggression? If he is not, then tell him, and ask whether he would feel happy to have his mother in fear of being beaten up as well.

Have the police been involved in the violent crime? That should be enough. He should stay well away.

I don't think you can put his words to you down to hormones. He sounds in need of proper guidance. What does his father think?

I have a 17yr old grandson who is treating his mother in the same way, he can be obliging and loving one minute and calling her all the names the next minute, he was asked to take the rubbish bag out to the shoot yesterday and world war three broke out when he wouldn't/didn't do it , my daughter isn't a push over but has run out of strategies to get him to do things he's been asked to do... you can hardly manhandle a 17yr old.
I do know its not your fault rubylady sounds like you are doing your best , I tell my daughter to put it down to hormones and his age I know its no excuse for bad behaviour but they do grow out of it and turn into a son you can be proud of again... I know it doesn't make life any easier but hopefully he will come out the other end sooner rather than later..

Yes, hormones, he will be sorry when he's older. All that testosterone induced by outrage on behalf of his friend needing an outlet and fancying a fight, and you stopped him. So were on the receiving end. It's not you, it's him. Maybe he needs a trip to casualty at 4am one Friday/Saturday to see the possible outcome. I really feel for you, my sisters both went through the same. It ended when their sons got badly beaten up, which is no help to you but sometimes a bit of pain makes them think twice.

Teenagers can be revolting but you have to tell him - when he is in a better, more receptive mood - that it is just not acceptaptable for him to speak to you like that. I can understand him wanting to help a friend and being frustrated when you told him that it wasn't a good idea but he should not be reducing you to tears.

If he lost his coat and you just bought him another one when money is tight then he is not going to learn the value of anything either. Perhaps he needs to get a part-time job and pay you back for it.

Just read my post and it sounds quite harsh, but having gone through the teenage phase with three DC who came out the other side as lovely (imo) people I think you have to be firm.

acceptable!

I think generally speaking that they do outgrow this attitude. He says these things knowing that you will still be there for him.

My son lives 6000 miles away these past 9 years. Talking on the phone recently,about what I can't recall, and he said.......you know mum I was pretty horrible at times. (Mid teens) I used to purposely do things to wind you up and I really need to apologize for the way I got on.

In those days he had attitude and could behave like he couldn't stand me, thought I was stupid and knew nothing.....he was very good with put down body language!!

These years are hard for you.... some day you can remind him.

He's in the Godzilla stage. Horrible but he will eventually become a human being.

I was a single mother with a teenage son and teenage daughters. I would have been jumping up and down if any of them ever spoke to me like that. I wouldn't have been waiting for the situation to cool down and having a word with him later. I would have said "YOU DO NOT SPEAK TO ME LIKE THAT!"

There is no way I would have put up with being spoken to in such away. We were close and I really enjoyed my children when they were teenagers.

This is not how teenagers nor adult children should be speaking to their parents. I would from today refuse to ever be spoken to like that again. You are not being unreasonable to set down rules whether you want your son involved in fights. Also don't buy him the coat while he is rude. I am sorry ruby your situation will only get worse if you tip toe around your son.

You're just going to have to keep plodding on with him. Try to keep things on an even keel. But don't let him get away with stuff like that. Try not to blow your top, but speak firmly and clearly. Tell him you will have some respect. And try to keep him away from those bad boys.

You're not a bad mum. You sound like a good one.

Almost exactly what I would have said Faye in a quiet but assertive voice -
'Don't you EVER speak to me like that again'

Thanks ladies, your comments make me feel a bit better. He has questioned himself to be autistic recently. Not that this should excuse his behaviour, but does anyone know if autistic children are more prone to outbursts? I questioned it some time ago but got nowhere with the doctors. He is a very vocal person in the way he is honest and says what he thinks, to me at least. If I am boring him he will tell me so. But with others he doesn't open up well, if at all and doesn't look directly at someone when speaking to them.

With regards to the fighting, he is also not a fighter. I think he just wanted to meet up with his friend and see how he was, not go and fight the boys involved. Some lads are picking on this friend's younger brother, who is 15 and getting him to do things he shouldn't be doing. They beat him up first and so the older brother went to maybe sort it out and they beat him up to. Today the older one has been taken to a safe house but the younger one is still at home. My son goes to college with their sister, who I have an inkling that he likes and so wants to help her family. The older brother is also at their college but in a lower year.

I have had this attitude for some time now. His father is not in the picture, he left him on the doorstep at eight years old and has never seen him since. I have other men in the family but none will get involved. They are cowards, so I have to do it all myself and my health is getting worse so the energy, patience, fight is lower than it would have been some years ago. I am getting past doing all this, I just want a quiet life. I have had arguments going on since I was a nipper and I've had a belly full. My parents took chunks out of each other, my marriage was violent and non communicative, the only happy time was when I was with my ex for five years and we had a ball. He made me really happy. I wish I could be with someone like him again. (He was a lot younger than me and still wanted children of his own.)

He has apologised today but the attitude is still lingering. The coat got lost, he did not lose it, but I haven't replaced it today. He is on half term anyway so going nowhere really. I bought the wallpaper for my new living room instead.

He did say that he might do uni and stay at home. I told him that he couldn't. Mean or not, I cannot live like this for any more than I need to. He can leave when he is 19 and sort himself out. He is gaming all the time instead of working for his A levels. It's an addiction with him, I'm sure. But he has to get his head down and study because I am not keeping him after he turns 19. He is having counselling at the moment, it seemed to be working in the beginning but he has got an attitude again. I do love him, of course I do but I feel that if I started screaming about all this, I would never stop.

Sorry, 3rd paragraph should read he has had this attitude for some time now

rubylady I'm glad the comments made you feel better at least. Reading your post I can't see the situation getting any better in the short term, there are too many issues.

I'm so sorry to hear how your son is treating you rubylady. He may or may not have autistic traits, or lie somewhere on the spectrum, but he has to learn that he can't speak to you this way. As others have suggested, tell him firmly but calmly that you will not accept it. As for deciding he will go to uni and stay at home, he may have to learn the hard way that gaming all day and night won't get him there. It sounds as if he is thinking that way because it seems like an easy option to him.

My son caused us a lot of worry throughout his childhood and teenage years. At one stage a child psychiatrist said 'if I had to put a label on him it would be Asperger's syndrome but I'm not going to do that because I don't think it would help him'. That's not true for everyone, of course, but in my son's case she was absolutely right. I remember how difficult those years were, and how confusing. My son was a recluse, but if we tried to encourage or force him to leave the house he could be verbally vile. He once trashed his room and I remember being afraid that he would turn into an aggressive woman hating man. You say you have experienced aggression and violence all your life, and I suspect your son's behaviour must trigger all the feelings of fear and sorrow that you experienced in those earlier relationships. Please, if you can, try to separate your son from all that and believe that he can grow into a kind and loving man who will be sorry for his behaviour. I know my son has, but the way was very dark at times. In short, don't take any crap, but don't give up on him either. He needs you more than he will ever admit

You're right to be firm and let him know he's standing on his own two feet at 19. I know he's in the godzilla stage but he cannot get away with being so rude to you and he needs to take responsibility for his behaviour and actions.

I realise my post sounded rather negative Ruby and that was not my intention. Rather it was accepting that there are long term and complex issues here. I just couldn't begin to think where to start to tackle this.

I think Nightowl has dealt with your worries in a more positive way and speaking from personal experience. I hope that her post will show you some light at the end of the tunnel. Her last two sentences in particular are worth noting.

Thank you for your kind words Anya.

Anya is right rubylady, nothing will change overnight. But try not to be too pessimistic. I always hung on to the thought that my son would somehow sort himself out around the age of 30. It helped me to have some hope even though it was a long way off. As it happened, my son turned his life around most unexpectedly from the age of about 20. I was afraid to hope it would last but at 25 he is independent (apart from money - he's a student) and happy. I'm not saying your son will do this but just saying they can surprise you. I really do wish you the very best of luck.

I hope everything works out and would like to say that no, you are not a bad mum - you sound like a very nice and caring mum (but don't be too soft!).

Teenagers can be so difficult and the house move may have upset him as well even if you were both looking forward to it.

As for the gaming, presumably on the computer, this sort of thing can be addictive (as can Gransnet!). I have noticed even with young children, if they are wrenched away from the computer after you think they have been on there long enough, they can be very irritable and naughty. If he is gaming on the computer for hours it will make him tired and irritable, but I'm not sure what you can do about that.
Let's hope he makes some new friends now you have moved, ones who don't get into fights and have some ambition to get to university.

Thank you all for your words of wisdom, they really have helped. Just to know that you are there to let off steam to helps but especially Nightowl has helped because of going though it herself. Thank you.

My DS had a bad start, was poorly as a baby, was very clingy as a child, had to be peeled off me for school, was assaulted at first year seniors five times and eventually home schooled for four years. Add all that up with his dad abandoning him (at 8) and his sister not giving two hoots when she left for uni (at 9), then no wonder he pushes at times. He probably thinks that I will leave him too someday. But I wont. It his really hard to have the fall out of everyone else's bad behaviour turned towards me from him but that is what has been happening. He has counselling for this and is seeing his counsellor tomorrow. It's an awful time anyway, without added stuff, turning into an adult, discovering sexual feelings, doing schoolwork etc. He has worked hard to find friends when he started college last year and has done well with this, he now has some good friends who we have moved closer to.

I don't know how to get him off his gaming or computer (facebook etc) as it is so much a part of people's lives these days (thank god I grew up in the 70's) but he does have to learn that being on it wont get him his grades. It is so frustrating sometimes, especially being a single parent, it's not easy and I wouldn't advise anyone to do it lightly.

We have been to register today with a new doctor and he sorted out his bank account. Then we called for a hot chocolate and an ice cream so I had him out to socialise and get used to the new area a bit longer.

He says he feels introverted, which is really difficult for me to deal with as I don't know what that would feel like. Just read a little on it and it doesn't seem a bad thing to be, just that he may be wired a little different to others which I have suspected for a while, being autistic or ADHD when he was little as he used to climb the walls etc.

It's hard to write about someone'e complete personality on here, obviously and today he has appreciated me helping him with the doctors and bank and has so done something back for me. I have days like this but then days when he is so stubborn and child like it blows my head. Kids eh? Who'd have 'em? XXX

Glad we could help rubylady, and glad you have had a better day. As you say, it's hard being a parent, especially if you have one that doesn't quite 'fit' in some way (though they all have their problems).

Do keep coming back to let off steam, we all need to do it at times

I had a brother like this although the problems started much earlier. My parents indulged him dreadfully- my mother said she felt guilty that she had him when she was older (48) and he used this to abuse her verbally. The continued to spoil him and not address his awful behaviour which was too dreadful to describe and I don't want to go over it but my point is the spoiling and indulging him made him worse until the situation became untenable and he got into the most dreadful trouble. My parents died and it got worse and worse. We have no contact with him now as he is either in prison or in rehab neither of which he complies with. I know its hard but sometimes the tough love approach is the right one. I don't think for a moment this will happen to anyone else but if your ever thinking you have been to harsh you probably haven't. I hope things work out well.

Thanks Teetime I know that I haven't been too harsh, if anything I have been too soft with both my children. If I had my time over again I would have done things differently but alas, we cannot rewind.

I know that my son says some awful things and really does upset me but he does apologise, and I know he means it. My daughter always went and sulked and probably felt things, slagged me off to friends but said nothing to my face (still the same now) and so I have always been left never knowing how she has felt towards me. So in a mad way I prefer the verbal off my son. He has had a lot of things to contend with and it's like a can of worms when we lift the lid on it, hence his counselling he is having. Like his dad leaving him on the doorstep on his 8th birthday and never seeing him again. Like his sister being really nice to him and then when she went to university never bothering with him again. He is scared stiff of me deserting him too, especially with my health problems (heart failure). So his insecurities turn into anger and upset, needing my attention and reassurance not shouting or being more assertive with him. Not that him getting his own way is the right way, but working out to play him is the best way forward. He has always had problems, maybe ADHD as a child, socially awkward, never liked being with anyone, brain seemingly on the go all the time and wired differently to others so for me, if I can get him to go out for a short time it is a huge achievement for me and him. Unless you have a child that is unique, then it is hard to understand how these children work. My daughter thinks I have given into him too much and that is not the case. She wouldn't know anyway seeing as she doesn't see him any more. But she hasn't helped me with him at all in the last 8 years and he has gone through bad depression to the point of that if I left him alone, I would wonder what I would find when I got back. I have dealt with it all alone so it is no wonder if from time to time, now he is nearly 18 years old, sometimes I feel overwhelmed with it all. Plus the house move and I gave up smoking two weeks ago and have been feeling rubbish because of the cough etc. I'll get through it, like I have for the last 27 years of me bringing my children up on my own. I have been divorced 13 years but even before that my ex was a shift worker and didn't spend time with the children when home.

Nothing more has been said about the friend who got hit, so hopefully it will fade away.

Thanks again to you all for your kind replies, they are very much appreciated.

I am glad you brought up this post again ruby, I wanted to add please do not threaten your son with moving out. It's not a good time for him at age nineteen to have to leave home if he is not ready. He would be better working for a few years in any job, living at home and then going to Uni as a mature age student.

DS was unhappy at school as a teenager he was also very introverted. I wish he had known then that he would be a happy adult.