Christenings - a farce for non-believers?

I didn't have either of my children baptised and they have not had their baptised.
My daughter came under pressure from her MiL to have hers baptised because her MiL is Catholic. My daughter has no problem with anyone belonging to a faith but she does not think its right to choose your children's faith.

Sadly,.. I think these days its like the Church wedding thing - more about the ceremony than the real meaning.

So true Jess and I could also see the humour in the description of this event. I would prefer there to be a ritual naming ceremony that is not religious, but don't get all principled about it - it's a reason for families and friends to get together and enjoy each other's company. When my twin grandsons were christened at 6 months old, we all piled in to the conservative club (church and tories in one morning - still, I managed!) and had a good laugh. The grandmothers sat protectively at one end of a room with tired, crying, hungry babies and made the world alright for them again, while mum and dad circulated and cleverly kept their babies away from clumsy people who wouldn't have a clue how to pacify a baby. We got home mid-afternoon, leaving several men behind to have another beer and bring the dishes and containers, and breathed a huge sigh of relief that it was done and we would have some lovely phorographs! Good times x

HI Claire and welcome, well that does sound like a bit of a circus. In fact if it was not for the poor little mite being miserable it would be quite funny (from a fly on the wall position, not an obliged to take part position, which must have been unpleasant) . I particularly liked the notion of a dress code that was then ignored! I hope you will not be offended by me saying that.
But he is young and not harmed by the experience. It is over for him, but not for you. I hope writing it all down has helped.
The adults have grown up in materialistic times and each generation has its own norms of behaviour.

Right on to your respones, mishap and bagitha! Couldn't say it better.

One of the reasons I enjoy taking part in on-line forums is that I get to 'talk' to people I would never normally 'meet'. I am an atheist and a secularist (the distinction has been very well made on this thread). I think people who believe in any supernatural being are wrong - they think I am wrong. Presumably, Christians think that the billions of people who believe in other religions are wrong, and don't believe in their gods. I believe in one less god than them.
I don't understand why some believers seem to think I have to 'respect' their beliefs. How can I respect something that I think is totally misguided? Do Christians 'respect' the belief held by some fathers in other religions that their daughters are their property and can be murdered if they 'dishonour' them? Or is it only Christianity that has to be respected?
I strongly object to C of E Bishops having any place in the law-making process and I shiver when I hear politicians prattling on about bringing back 'Christian values'. Would those be the values that treat women as second class, or sent children to be abused in the colonies? Of course, abuse is still continuing and being excused and covered up.
I accept the right of anyone to hold any religous views they choose, as long as they do not seek to impose those beliefs on me. I can like and admire a believer for their other qualities, but I cannot pretend to 'respect' their beliefs. This does not mean I don't respect them as people, just their religious beliefs.

I do agree that rituals are very important in human social experience and should be encouraged.

I have been to the christening of a GS (none of the others were christened) and (as an agnostic) I took it in the spirit of welcome and support for the wee lad - and this was the spirit in which my D and SIL organised the event. And we had some lovely singing.

Now - some may feel this is taking advantage of the church in an inappropriate way, but one of my best friends is a vicar and she has no problem with this. She is entirely realistic about what is going on, and is happy to be a part of a ceremony to welcome the child. Her prayers for the child are heartfelt in a particular religious way that is not shared by everyone present, but she recognises their genuine support for the child and that everyone there has this as a common goal.

On the church schools digression, I am opposed to state subsidy for these. As bagitha says, religion should be taught about, not fed as fact. There are real dangers about faith schools - the whole anti-evolution thread is very worrying.

I have grave concerns about children being taught religion as fact - the truth is we are all "don't knows" when it comes to the big questions, but some have beliefs that others do not. If they care to explain this to children in terms of this being a belief of there's that is fine; but usually it is not expressed in those terms.

On the subject of religion doing good - I agree that it sometimes motivates people to do good; but it does not therefore follow that the religious beliefs are true. And we cannot ignore the fact that in the main religion has done more harm than good (try God is not Good by Christopher Hitchens).

Hi this is my first post... and here goes.

I am a new Grandma...by proxy to my Step-daughters son. It makes social event difficult.

Like today, my Grandson's 1st birthday...I just wanted to see him enjoying life.

Instead the poor little boy was all dressed up like one of those tiny pet dogs in dress. He looked uncomfortable, couldn't move, stressed and he was tired. He wore a waistcoat, wedding shirt and tie...with suit trouser all at least a size to big.

My step-daughter wanted to host a naming ceremony...she invited everyone to show off (is the impression I got). Her partner bless him, invited his family who arrived in their hundreds with their bad mannered, foul mouthed offspring.

On arrival and on time, unlike most...despite receiving an invite with instructions on time, dress code, type of event.

My step-daughter looked like she was going to a garden oprea party or something totally inappropriate gold and shimmery (It's January!!). Others were in jeans and t-shirt as instructed NOT to be. While her partners family wore my daughters clothes and shoes...again summery, bare legs and not much covering the hefty size 18.

We were instructed on where to deposit our gifts 'IN THE PILE'. I took time to choose this carefully for my Grandson.

Friends/Family of my step-daughter and her partners made promises to my grandson they truly didn't intend to keep or understand. These people were named as guardian angels to my Grandson.

I wouldn't trust them, as far as I could throw them. one couple they'd know for no more than 3 months?

At that point I thought what was the point!

Why make up events under the pretense of achieving the equivalent of a christening or baptism without the religious aspect?

I have nothing against the whole religion thing...I do not force my beliefs on anyone, but I do expect manners.

A welcome, please and thank you...not great your here, what did you bring us.

I didn't get to hold and say hi to my grandson, I had to watch him being tossed from his Mum's arms to his Dad as they scurried away to show him off to people who clearly care or want to be there. All the while, my Grandson... pulled and tugged at his attire..charming as it was... he cried and made all the noise he could to get his parents and anyone near him notice...HE WAS UNCOMFORTABLE.

My children's generation have no manners, no etiquette, nor understanding the reason for the formality surrounding family events..from the minor Sunday lunch to the Wedding or Funeral.... It's all one big party.. no longer about respect for the person/s we are celebrating.

Yet, I remember teaching them all these things, setting a table, how to use a knife and fork...what to where to a funeral, what to do at a wedding, how to accept and write thank you letters for gifts received.

What happened....?

This topic seems to have attracted so much attention that I have missed a lot not logging on for a day or two!

The point is that institutions, including the church, are built and run by people, not by a god or gods. People pay for them.

It may well be that it is the congregation that sustains the individual churches, although I believe that the Roman Catholic church is wealthy, and that the Church of England would be if the Church Commissioners hadn't been so abysmally incompetent in administration.

Either way, additional members would seem to be a good idea, and a church that discriminates against non-believers is unlikely to attract them.

So I don't feel particularly guilty at attending a baptism as an atheist, and I am the godparent of three children whose parents all knew that I was an atheist, but trusted that I should take an interest in the children as they grew up. I fulfilled that commitment at least.

The point about the "general social and community context" and the church is the one that gives me the problem. There should be a secular "general and community context", but, because of the stranglehold the main religions still have, there is not enough space for one to grow. In France, no marriage is valid until undertaken by the (secular) mayor. In the UK, marriages are not regarded as valid by some people unless they are undertaken by a minister of religion. That is the difference between a secular state and a Christian country.

nannysgetpaid I (an atheist) too was at a family (great nephew) baptism on Sunday and have already described how lovely the whole event was, pace a fairly second-rate priest with a seriously bad cold. What a shame that this occasion was so disappointing for you because even rituals that are a bit mumbo jumbo for some of those attending can still have a significance and resonance as part of family life and in a general social and community context. Still, look om the bright side, you have a grandson.

Our grandson was christened on Sunday. The service went on for ever, with the vicar losing the plot half way through and rambling on about the seaside. I did not take part in any of the prayers (unbeliever) but watched the godparents who all seemed uncomfortable. The vicar went on to give out church notices knowing that no-one at that service would be attending. I was glad to be out and back to the party, but as my husband pointed out later I did put money in the collection plate for a religion I did not believe in I suppose that makes me a hypocrite.

We don't need a pat on the head from bunic or anyone else for that matter.

Mmmmmmmmmmmm...think that last comment from bunic might be worthy of nomination as the most patronising and dismissive comment yet to appear on GN!!

Whatever ladies,still love you

Perfectly sensible approach, absent, and what most atheists do. Of course I wouldn't expect anything else but perfectly sensible from you!

Good post absent. That is what life is all about, being tolerant and enjoying other people's rituals. I am a churchgoer but have no problem with anyone who is not or who is an atheist or belong to another faith. Glad you enjoyed your day.

I think you have it spot-on absent. You attend, you participate, you enjoy the ritual and the pleasure of the committed parents but you don't become a hypocrite by doing or saying anything you don't believe in.

absent - glad you had such a joyous day. You make an important point about the importance of rituals - often very underrated in Western society, but excellent 'glue' for families and communities. There has been some very interesting research done on the importance of ritual in sustaining healthy family relationships.

Just for the record and way off the place this thread has got to, I went to a christening today and it was a truly joyous event. I have to say that the revver didn't score very highly on my revver chart and he had the most appallingly noisy cold, but the church was beautiful, the baby was angelic, the parents and godparents were truly committed and the celebration afterwards was a delight and a living definition of family values and love. As an atheist, I don't subscribe to the beliefs about baptism, but as a human being (and great aunt) I wholly subscribe to the sense of support and love for the little chap. Rituals, such as baptism, are an important function of our lives. I am happy, even delighted to attend but have always graciously refused to be a godparent – one step too far for me. I don't think that's hypocritical.

Another way to describe atheism is to say that so far I haven't heard of any gods I believe in. This is not saying it's impossible and will never happen, just that it hasn't happened yet. I did try, in my youth.

Can you explain that, please, sprinkles, as I don't understand how? I know some people regard atheism as a kind of religion, but I haven't heard secularism called a religion before. Secularism is not confined to atheists. Some religious people are secularists too because they believe in the separation of church and state. The founding fathers of the American constitution were secular, as were those of the French constitution. As I said before, secularism is about religious freedom. It is not about or against any kind of religion, just doesn't want religion to influence laws, in the sense of being advantageous or disadvantageous. It seeks to make religious prejudice impossible in public and legal terms, for everyone, whatever their own religious beliefs.

I think the argument that atheism is a religion goes like this. If you believe there are no gods, that is just a belief which can't be proved so it's just the same as a belief that there are gods (or a god). However, logically, that's the same as saying something like not collecting stamps is a hobby. It doesn't make sense. Furthermore, most of the atheists I know, including me, do not say that they believe categorically there are no gods, they just say that when someone shows them convincing evidence, then they'll believe it, but until then they'll suspend belief.

I wonder if you are mixing the two terms atheism and secularism, perhaps?

Baggy, secularism is a form of modern day religion.

bunic your a bloke.. right ? Not your kind of conversation topic I guess, what are you doing reading the thread unless you are a minister of the church and have a vested interest.

We've moved on, bunic. Conversations do.

I started this thread and I'm enjoying watching it meander

bunic, do you have an opinion on the thread?