9/11.....?????

Yes Johanna On Gransnet we admire one another and respect one another. We are a diverse collection of women (and a few men) who have experience in many areas of work and life. We don't have the same opinions or backgrounds but we respect our right to differ. We do not need to annihilate one another because we don't agree about everything. It is called maturity and tolerance and the world could use a lot more of it.

I am upset every time there is the death of a soldier in Afghanistan and Iraq. The misery of the families at their funerals is heartbreaking. I feel quite angry at Bush, Blair and Howard rushing headlong into war with Iraq especially. I am never sure about Afghanistan, I want the soldiers there to come home but feel terribly sorry for the Afghan women and children.
On saying that too, there is a family my daughter, has become friends with. They are from the UK and the husband was in the British Army. He was told that he would be doing back to back missions (not sure of the word) in Iraq. Apparently the British Army don't have enough soldiers so they are asked to go to these places more than once. I was told, but it's second hand information, that the amount of soldiers in the UK were reduced by about 20,000 so now there is a shortage. This man got a transfer to the Australian Army.

I love the idea Grannyact of peace walks. I despair at the amount of money wasted on fruitless wars, imagine the good it could have done for humanity but instead it was spent on misery. We need to let these politicians, who are making a huge mess of everything they touch know that we have had enough!

What is there to say that has not been said? Why is the tenth anniversary more important than, say, the sixth? Of course, it was a terrible, shocking, tragic event – how often do we need to say that? It also led to terrible, shocking and tragic reactions – we know that. Of course any human being with one jot of compassion feels for those whose loved ones died on that awful day – do we need to keep saying it? Of course, the politics are complex and difficult, but nothing justifies killing some 3,000 people in New York and an uncounted number in Iraq and Afghanistan. How shall we ever make politicians listen to the rest of us? I feel that having a thread about 9/11 on gransnet (or anywhere else) is pretty much gratuitous – just like much of the media at the moment – we can all demonstrate how right bloody thinking we are and feel good about ourselves. Well, not me.

johanna By the way, somebody (elegran) did start a thread about this event totally independently, but not until 11 September.

I guess I'll be taking some of the pressure off Johanna with my views but here are my thoughts...

When I saw the newsflashes of the planes hitting the towers on late night TV here in Oz my first thought was "Payback's a bitch". Whether it was through greed or because America decided to sit and wait to make a bit of profit before joining the rest of us in WWII (they learned that game in WWI) and then felt ashamed that they'd done nothing to halt the spread of Nazi Germany and the Holocaust, the USA decided to support the terrorist state of Israel. Remember that if we like them they're freedom fighters, if we're not sure they're guerillas, if we don't like them they're terrorists. Like it or not Israel is here to stay (as long as the West keeps throwing them money and moral support - is it collective guilt over the Holocaust or is that too simple an explanation?) and the atrocities of the leaders of both Israel and Palestine have done very little to seek peace in the region leading to that conflict becoming a rallying point for Islamic terror.

So now we had the attacks on the 11th of September, and the kneejerk reaction by the bullying buffoon President Bush was to go to war, dragging his traditional allies into war with him. If we weren't with him we were against him, remember? Here in Australia we have a growing and increasingly vocal majority of people like my 89 year old mother, who served during WWII (as did my late father) and is traditionally very politically conservative, wondering why the Hell our forces are still dying to support America's War on Terror. She's always been a supporter of the USA, my father always wanted Australia to become a state of the USA, and that was despite the oft repeated reputation of the US forces in Australia in WWII as being "oversexed, overpaid, and over here". If our parents' generation who have seen and experienced firsthand the tragedy and effects of war want to see our forces return home then it's not just a leftist lunatic fringe calling for an end to this idiocy! We Australians watched many of our young men go to Vietnam to support a corrupt government doomed to failure without US support, and we're seeing it again with the puppet regimes in Afghanistan and Iraq. As an Afghani activist said recently on television here: "It's not important who votes - it's important who counts the votes!"

I feel great sympathy for anyone who has lost a loved one in any conflict, whether state sanctioned or terrorist perpetrated. I have the greatest respect for anyone who is prepared to sign up and put their life on the line and serve in the military. What I will not do is support a populist outpouring of orchestrated grief to mark the day when America's chickens came home to roost.

"demonstrate right bloody thinking" — well said, absent

"populist outpouring of orchestrated grief" — well said, popparob

Difficult things to say. You are braver than me. I only thought them.

Don't anyone sincerely grieving for a loved one take that the wrong way, please. We are only objecting to what those words refer to — the media hype that I call politically correct bullying — not to quiet peace walks, services, remembrances and so on. What happened to quiet respect in our noisy world?

No offence taken by me - and in fact I would go further and say that often the response you're objecting to is a substitute for taking action to change things. How shall we ever make politicians listen to the rest of us? absent? It's by taking the time to write to them/sign petitions/go on demonstrations etc. It's about taking action to bring about change. It's about 'being' the change.
When my children were younger I often used to rail at the way things were, but due to a busy lifestyle I neglected to act to try to influence things. Then I came to realise that without action my words were empty. So for quite a few years now I have made sure that my voice is heard in the ways described above and in other more personal ways. Does it effect change on a wider scale? I don't know, but it's changed me.
If a handful of activists can get together and devise and implement a plan to destroy two of the most iconic buildings in the United States, then seven thousand grannies on Gransnet can make a difference to education, the health service, elder care......both politically and personally.

grannyactivist Good for you and I wholly agree – but they still don't listen. I have been a political animal throughout my adult life and have a long history of demonstrating against apartheid in Trafalgar Square, against the Vietnam War in Grosvenor Square, in support of CND and so on. I have never seen a demonstration as big, as peaceful and as diverse in its make up as the one that took place on 15 February 2003 protesting against the proposed invasion of Iraq. Did they listen? (Rhetorical question). Yes, I shall continue ploughing the furrow with letters to MPs, demonstrations, signing petitions and yes, I shall fully support pressure from a united gransnet on the issues about which we have expressed concern, but with an increasing sense of disillusionment.

Likewise, at least as far as taking action goes. I'm often cynical but not disillusioned — yet. Change is slow but it happens. Think of how much has changed for the better in the last hundred years. That will continue, I'm sure, because discussing ideas, voicing opinions, making yourself heard does make a difference to attitudes..... eventually.

Well said PoppaRob ...like Baggysaid ...you have put into print what I've been thinking, but not had the courage to say here!

I too mourn with the individuals who have lost loved ones in all the conflicts in living memory ...but have no sympathy with the country that has dragged us into so many recent events ...too often due to greed.

Well done grannyacvtivist for joining the walk.

The worst part of it is that I'm sure many people have feelings and thoughts not unlike mine, but here in Australia, probably in the UK and definitely in the USA one almost expects a knock on the door and black helicopters circling overhead if you speak out.

That's what makes the anonymity of these forums so satisfying, PoppaRob. We can sound off and nobody can identify us.

Annobel! Nothing could be further from the truth. Even if you are using anonymous connections your packets of information and identity are very much traceable.

Annobel and Poppa - if the CIA (or equivalent) arrive on your doorsteps would you please take a moment to let us know, before they cart you off for interrogation! Not belittling a serious subject, but can't bear the thought of our relatively unimportant exchanges being subjected to that level of scrutiny.

Some people already think I'm subversive - I only wish I had the courage!

PoppaRob, must commened you on a thoughtful, well argued piece that is much more valuable than the silly comments that started this thread. I too deply regret the actions taken by Blair et al and am appalled by the waste of the beautiful young men and women who are still paying the price. They have my greatest admiration for their sense of duty and dedication whilst doing a very difficult job and my heart goes out to their families who have to support them and cope with the consequences.

Very interesting interview with Jimmy Carter in yesterdays Observer where he points out that he never set out to make money from being President and has devoted all the years since then to trying to make the world a more peaceful place and eliminating a disease that used to kill millions. Now in his 86th year and as active as ever and, yes, he does point a finger at Blair's accumulation of wealth since he left Downing Street. I wasn't too happy to see Bush wheeled out yesterday, either. When I was in a multilateral peace group years ago we were all convinced our phones were being tapped, so I'm sure there are people monitoring any reaction to yesterday's events. I guess we're all worried to say things that are on our minds because we so don't want to hurt people that have become embroiled in these senseless conflicts or undermine their bravery and commitment. And, in Blair's defense, he did help bring about peace in Yugoslavia, for which I will always be grateful as no one seemed to care about what was happening at the time.

Good to hear from you popparob. Do you really think the US support(ed) Israel out of guilt? I had always assumed that it was the massive, hugely affluent pro-Israeli donators to party funds (both republican and democrat) that dunnit...
I always thought I'd probably be on special branch files by association 1/close family member involved in far left politics and 2/ had a lodger for a few years whose cousin was leader of one of the protestant paramilitary organisations in NI (I was on mainland) occasionally he used to ring up the house. I am able to do a very good impersonation of him.
The combination of these two would be a little confusing though if the spooks ever looked at it...
The sad thing is that Blair probably went into politics full of good intentions...

grannyactivist I am a bit late catching up with this thread, but I just want to say my thoughts were with you and your family yesterday.

I think we only have look at the influence Rupert Murdoch had over Tony Blair to understand why the UK joined the US in the war in Iraq.
In an interview in the Guardian in 2003 Murdoch said the price of oil would be the war's main benefit on the world economy.
"The greatest thing to come out of this for the world economy, if you could put it that way, would be $20 a barrel for oil. That's bigger than any tax cut in the any country."
www.guardian.co.uk/media/2003/feb/11/iraqandthemedia.news

It disgusts me that Murdoch had so much influence over Blair.
https://ktwop.wordpress.com/2011/09/05/was-tony-blair-just-doing-murdochs-bidding-on-iraq/
Cheap oil, but at what price????
We might get politicians to listen to us after we make sure they are not influenced by the likes of people such as the Murdochs.

Jess and PoppaRob you both mention Israel, it is interesting that Rupert Murdoch's mother, Elisabeth Murdoch is Jewish which means he must be too!
What is creepy is this man has had too much influence over the West for decades!!!!

Crimson I read that interview with Jimmy Carter too, I wonder what the world would be like now if he had have had more influence. Its a shame that he wasn't appreciated then!

Personally, I think one atrocity is no worse or better than any other.
I can't imagine how bad it must be for the families of anyone who is taken in such a sudden and cruel way - either American or any other Nationality in the world.
My daughter drives me nuts with all the conspiracy theories as she strongly believes in some of them !

After a few days away have only just caught up with this thread. Would just like to add that while appalled at the tragedy of 9/11, I cannot help also grieving for the thousands of innocent Iraqi and Afghan civilians who have been killed, injured or lost their homes and livelihoods because of this insane War on Terror. I don't think I will ever forgive Blair and his craven Labour Party minions for allowing the UK to trot after Bush like obedient lap-dogs - and I speak as a lifetime Labour voter.
As for the OP - perhaps being 'over-age' etc has given us here on GN a sense of perspective not available to younger people?

Let's not forget the stand that Robin Cook took against the war, raggygranny. As another disillusioned Labour Party voter, I'll always remember what he did. I must listen to his speech again; I think it's on utube.

Obama was also against the war in Iraq. www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXzmXy226po
The world might be in a better position now if he had followed his principles when he took office. All the needless deaths, misery and useless waste of money. The US looks like it is heading for a Depression with the rest of the world following!

Yes crimson, I hadn't forgotten Robin Cook and a few other principled Labour MPs, but the majority left me feeling totally let down.