to be screaming silently

I have had to bite my tongue a few times and just live with it. 8-year-old GD had ears pierced last summer but has now decided to allow the holes to grow over and wait till she's older - how old, I'm not sure. Peer-group influence on GD and her mother.
When I was teaching in Kenya, our girls used to pierce each others' ears with a hot needle and pulled cotton through to keep the holes open. A steady stream of infections went up to the mission hospital. At least we don't have to face this with our families...

I wouldn't allow my daughters to have their ears pierced until they were sixteen, in spite of much nagging. On their birthdays they finally had ear-studs put in and they were ecstatic, they later said that it was something of a right of passage. interestingly they all now appreciate that they were made to wait. I forbade tattoos though on the basis that they are difficult and costly to remove (unlike piercings), but two of my daughters went on to have small tattoos done after leaving home (one since removed by laser). When one of my sons was younger he wanted to dye his hair - blue! I agreed that he could do so during the school summer holiday on condition that it was 'returned to normal' for the start of the next term. I hated it, but it allowed him an appropriate (harmless) freedom.

I also hate tattoos and piercings but it's today's fashion. In the case of a 14 year old - maybe it was a case of "picking your battles". I wore winklepicker shoes as soon as I could buy them myself and very mini skirts, which also horrified my parents and grandparents. I don't think any of the dreadful things they predicted would happen, did happen to me.

My dad had a fit when I bought a lovely pair of white winkle pickers with only four inch heels. He behaved as if I was going to stand on a street corner soliciting. And me such a sober, serious teenager. No, really....

There is a qualitative difference between so-called female circumcision and male circumcision. I don't approve of the latter except for medical reasons and would want to see it banned in this country, just as the law here does not permit cropping dogs' ears. Female circumcision causes all kinds of medical problems and is a direct result of the desire to control female sexuality. (If a woman experiences severe pain and a total lack of pleasure during intercourse, she is unlikely to be "licentious", so that way you know that your sons are your sons.) Problems resulting from poor hygiene, especially during the actual process of circumcision, urination, menstruation and childbirth are horrific.

From anecdotal evidence, circumcised males do not generally find intercourse less satisfactory than their uncircumcised fellows and certainly not painful.

HI em my DSs both have lots of "ink". I just don't get it. But there you go.
At lease belly button piercing is instantly reversible. Unlike tats and those gruesome ear plugs that ruin the earlobe for ever. Breathe deeply, or swear loudly in the privacy of your own space. My mother once said "I'm so glad punk was not the fashion when you were a teenager, cos I know you'd have been one"

I think it is significantly different in the female version. Foreskin or no foreskin - not the end of the world. Clitoris and labia or no clitoris or labia - well that's a bit different isn't it? That is more akin to cutting off the whole penis. That;s before we get into "birth obstructed by scar tissue" and the weeks of post operative agony.
Come on folks, it is not the same at all. I don't approve of operating on baby boys but - well - the two procedures are worlds apart.
Ah well - puts belly button ring into perspective maybe...

I don't think the victims of botched circumcisions would see a qualitative difference. There are many examples of boy babies in this country being mutilated by both NHS surgeons and religious leaders. There are Jewish social services agencies who provide counselling and referral advice for this problem to teenagers and men. I worked with such an agency for a short time and learned that circumcision is opposed by many Jewish people for some of the same reasons as female circumcision.

Here's a link:

www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/

em I think that given this situation I would be internally seething, furious, and very miserable but I might show some interest and pretend to be fascinated rather than ignoring it.

I'd certainly want to see the belly button and ask loads of questions like 'did it hurt...how long before it heals...do you have to change the stud/ring or whatever is in it?'

An adverse reaction usually fuels rebellion... keep your cool, we're all here and understand.

Really thinks there's no more to a navel piercing than an ear piercing -our daughter now 32 had hers done when she was 15 ( mind you her mum the doting grandma had hers done too) no harm has come of it! no criminal boyfriends no addictions no off the rails behaviour happened... all fine
Not like a tattoo or one of those brutal ear piercings that get stretched out to an inch diameter.

There is no doubt that male circumcision does cause problems - not just directly (infection, distortion caused by scar tissue) but also long term the loss of the foreskin causes a naturally protected part of male anatomy to be subject to the rigours of chafing by pants etc. and can cause problems. So many circumcised men feel very angry about what has been done to them.

But the principle that it is legal to perform a surgical procedure for which there is no medical indication on a baby who cannot give/withdraw consent is fundamentally wrong.

It is mutilation pure and simple and should be outlawed.

The good thing about a navel piercing is that it is reversible, so of many evils that she might get up to this is relatively unproblematical. I think your anger is about your D allowing it - I know how hard it is to bite the tongue when they do things we disagree with, but it is often the best policy. It is hard for us to get our heads round the way cultural norms move on, as we do tend to live by the standards of our young days. I am sure she will be fine - just stay friends with all of them and seethe on gransnet!!

I think my main problem is that I find mutilation as a fashion statement or a cultural statement just very hard to grasp. Still maintain that 14 is too young and that parents should have the guts sometimes to say NO!

My mother is a master of dissimulation; when my eldest daughter paid a visit to her after she'd had her nostril pierced and a small stud inserted my mother made no comment on it at all, but chatted in her usual way. However, as daughter was leaving, my mother pressed a fiver on her and whispered that she wanted her to buy vitamins with it as she suspected a vitamin shortage was responsible for the 'pimple' one her nose. Daughter explained that it was a nose stud and my mother apologised profusely, saying that when she looked very close she could of course see that, but had thought my daughter had a skin problem. The nose stud was removed within a week!!
My mum is wicked!!

I agree em 14 is too young. My D2 wanted her tongue pierced when she was 17, I was totally against it and said NO. She had it done at 18 when she was legally able to, she also got a belly button stud thing. She has taken both out now. None of my children have tattoos so far and only one of my sils has any tatoos. My youngest daughter mentioned she liked the idea of having her children's names tattooed on her arm. Why would you, I asked her. I have to admit that I do say what I think and I believe a 14 year old would look a lot cooler, trendy, hip, hot or whatever they call it nowdays if she went her own way and was not a follower of everyone else!

Now don't get me started on circumcision.

DS had an ear piercing when he was young and my DD had a nose stud. I burst into tears when I saw my son's ear and everyone was rather unhappy for a while. By the time DD had her nose stud I just said''That's very pretty, Dear''. Both of them have given up their piercings and are non the worse for it. Try and keep cool and calm,Em, it's better in the long run. Just remembered , DGN had a lip stud which he has also given up.

My DS1 went and had an ear pierced when he was 15, without my permission - the shop believed he was older and he looked it. What could I do but shrug my shoulders? I had far more important things to occupy my mind. Now he is a respectable middle-aged dad and the piercing is long forgotten. Believe me, em, they do eventually grow up.

I think part of my hangup is because DD1 did the same thing, regretted it and had the thing removed. I always thought that she'd use that experience to say no and explain why - at least while GD is SO young. However reading all these helpful posts has helped me look at it again. Maybe she felt that it was not such a big deal BECAUSE she did have hers removed. Have spoken to her today and am heading over to visit soon. She has also booked me for an overnight babysit Sat/Sun so she might be less likely to kick off!! Thanks to all who took part in the 'letting off steam' process.

Em - that's the joy of GN! Always someone to listen.

My SIL in England has tatoos but they don't worry me. He has one that records his late father's date of birth and death and the same for his mother. He did have an earing a long while ago but no longer.

My younger daughter lives with us in France. At 17 she shaved her head and had a tongue piercing. She got a tatoo on her shoulder of a demon (no idea why) but she was and still is happy with it. After she split up with her abusive now ex husband and came to France she had an Angel tatooed on her other shoulder. They mean a lot to her the demon symbolises her life before she split and the Angel her now better life.

I said no to piercings and tattoos while my daughter was legally too young to have them without my permission. Fat lot of difference that made.

Hi mishap
I remember that article. It was years ago and my postman was most intrigued by it!

Daughter No.3 has an apology for a tatoo at the base of her small toe which looks like something has cr....ed on it. At 17 she went travelling and returned with a thing through her tongue which remained there until she was about 24 when it split and fell out in the middle of a rather posh lunch in Harvey Nichs. She had her ears pierced, 5x in each ear at 14 when I had expressly said No, wait until you are 16. Now at the age of 30 she is a normal, sensible Mummy with only the splodge on her foot as a memory. I think it's a right of passage out of which they will eventually and hopefully, grow. SIL No.2 had his bellybutton pierced as a teenager (ugh) and took it out this year when he was 40 - thank heavens!

oops - only one cr...p!!

DS1 had tatoo on right shoulder and top of his arm when he was 18 and this was the norm then for younger soldiers at the time and still seems to be the norm now,DS2 decided that at 16 he could follow the path of his older brother and even though he had not joined the RAMC at that time he went with his best friend and had chinese symbols tatooed up the inside of his arm when he came home and told me I was mortified but could not say anything as DS1 had tatoo's,DH said to DS2 what does it say then son ? and was the guy who did it chinese and does he understand what it say's ? what do you mean dad ? says DS2 it means good long life,oh said DH are you sure its doesn't say ----head (pardon me girls) so DS2 took himself to the local chinese chip shop where his friend from school worked and was relieved to find out that the translation was correct and it meant good long life,but he just had to check and make sure.

One of my Ds has a tattoo of a dragon at the base of her spine - cannot be seen by anyone - can't imagine why she bothered! It is one of those that fades after 10 years. All seemed pretty pointless to me.