What's Happened to Manners

I've just arrived back and picked up on the French children link - we lived in a little French village for a bit - a bit too long actually - and hoards of French children/teenagers came to the village hall to get so drunk they slept on benches, in gardens and garages, wherever they could and their parents seemed not to notice or care. The French are very good at that and yet brushing up the public image nicely.

Smacking - oh yes indeed I smacked mine own but so wish we had the reward system that seems to work so well now - the main thing which is so lacking in all ages is to say no and mean just that. Some things you can do and others no.

Hear hear re men wearing hats indoors. Why not indeed?
As for young people giving up seat, I do agree that times have not changed for the better. But some young people have experienced considerable rudeness from adults who did not like being taken for 'elderly'. So even when I refuse an offer (eg I am getting off at next tube station) I always make a point of thanking them fairly profusely so as not to discourage them from offering next time.
I once witnessed a young-ish man sitting on a crowded train; a heavily pregnant woman was standing with her bump pretty well in his face but did he move? No way. Unfortunately I was standing too far away to intervene discreetly and did not think embarrassing her in public would be a good idea but if I'd been nearer, I'd have thought up some appropriate remark by the time w'd reached our destination.
An 80-year old friend of mine just looks round the carriage at the youngsters seated and says with a big smile 'Now which one of you nice young people is going to give me your seat?'. Apparently it never fails and I shall definitely use it when I get to the stage where standing is a real problem.

Just an anecdote regarding GC behaviour to Granny. Some years ago 2 DDs and I were on holiday woth Sis IL,nephew and granny. Nephew was about 3 and had a major tantrum one lunchtime, throwing his cutlery at Granny, SisIL said not a lot, neither did Granny and I held my peace as it wasn't really my business, but afterwards 2 DDs (10and14) took him round the back of the house and more or less threatened him with, We love our granny very much and you are being horrible to her, If you don't stop and behave we will not be your friends - so start being nice OR ELSE!!
It worked a treat and the holiday was much less fraught. He is now a charming gentle young man of nearly 22 who adored his granny up to her death 12 years ago.
Peer pressure - that's the trick!
Final observation - too many parents want to be FRIENDS with their children - and find discipline doesn't fit in with that mindset.

Gally

Well done ,Gally. It makes me so cross when people refuse . I know they probably find it makes them feel old but it's quite a tough thing for a young person to do in a carriage full of people who are NOT offering a seat.

Yes Hunt of course I was gracious I sat down on 2 occasions but declined the 3rd time as I was only going 1 stop.

Gally, I do hope you 'bit the bullet' when offered a seat , said a gracious 'thankyou ' and sat down. So many older people say 'no,thank you' and remain standing. If I were that young person I would think twice about offering my seat the next time I saw an elderly person standing.Manners work both ways.

I read the article that grannylin provided the link for. Thanks for that. I was not impressed. Too many sweeping generalisations which may do well for the sheep parents of both nations, but most of the people I know don't fit into either category. There's the word: category. You can't slot a whole nation's parents into neat little pockets like that, nor even a whole nation of "middle class" parents (which I think the article was about). In short, apart from highlighting one or two interesting "trends" (if that's what they are) I thought it was badly researched, opinionated rubbish. Certainly, I do not fit the description of a British parent, nor does my daughter, neither did my own parents or my in-laws. Lazy journalism.

I have to admit that I have never seen any French youngsters hopelessly drunk, falling down, vomiting, or swearing in all my years of living in France. True, I have lived in or outside small villages in rural areas, so perhaps I would have a different view if I had lived in Paris, Lyons, Marseilles or Toulouse.
I like the way they greet each other too, a handshake for the boys, kisses on the cheek for the girls. And I certainly would not enter a shop without saying 'Bonjour' to the assistant, or to other patients in my doctor's waiting room.
The downside of the French education system is that 80% of teenagers want to work for the government. France is over-blessed with 'fonctionnaires' who have a job for life and a good pension. 'Entrepreneur' might be a French word, but it is no longer a French concept.
My biggest complaint with my French fellow citizens is that they do not discipline their dogs as well as they discipline their children. I have seen dogs sitting on plush seats in restaurants, being fed from plates on the table.

I believe there is a good deal of child abuse in France and my ex-pat forum is often full of tales of children being physically ill-treated at school.
There has to be a happy medium between British and French methods of child rearing and from your posts it seems most of you have found it!

I think you've got something there, Joan. We were older parents (well, I started at 30) and my DSs and partners were well into the 30s before they started their families. When I had a big 70th birthday party, I was very proud of the good behaviour and social skills of the GC, from 3 to 18. I would be worried if children never had episodes of rebelliousness but on the whole, in my experience, they generally come round and toe the parental line if you are consistent in your attitude to discipline.

I just read it, and realised that we managed to get the best of both worlds.

Being older parents, in our mid and late 30s when they were born, we did not have the patience to indulge them, nor the energy to be up and down all night, so it was good manners at the table and in general, controlled bedtimes, early potty training, training in social manners, eg how to greet people and be introduced, proper food served at the table, always including vegetables, and zero tolerance of any behaviour that impacted on other adults.

However, we encouraged creativity and encouraged them to form opinions on whatever was happening in the world and in their lives. We gave them space to be bored, allowing only one outside of school activity each. For instance one chose soccer, another chose military cadets etc. They got the occasional smack, but usually 'That's enough' and a stern look did the job. Their Dad being ex-military helped, I think.

The French get most of it right, but their schools are too cold and indifferent. My Brother in law tried teaching in them and gave it away in favour of teaching English to adults. Perhaps the parents are a bit too hard too, but you have to admit, when kids are well behaved, society is more pleasant.

However, one thing that probably helps to keep French children civilised, is the food. It is rarely discussed, but junk food and poor eating habits impact on behaviour as well as health. The French eat well, and always at the table. They don't graze. They don't drink copious amounts of fizzy soft drinks. And their meals are usually healthy.

Very interesting article. I find French children to be much better behaved and I have met British children who would benefit from having their bottoms smacked.

Did anyone see this article in the Guardian
www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/jan/01/parenting-france-britain
about a new book 'Why French children don't throw food!'
It makes some interesting points(not the smacking bits though)

My father died in 1987. On the way to the crematorium, travelling in a car behind the hearse, a gentleman stranger doffed his hat as a sign of respect as we drove past. I found that gesture so touching.

Maybe parents should stop being "best friend" and start being parents.

There are times when you will be told "your horrible" "everyone else is/can" or even "I hate you". Last one got the reply "I love you but I do not particularly like you at the moment".

Seems to have done them no harm and they turned out fine.

Nanban - could not agree more. If the messages of discipline and respect don't start at home (with parents providing a decent example) how are children meant to learn - and why should teachers be left to pick up the pieces?

Parents are what's gone wrong - how many times have I heard 'school will sort them out' as an excuse for not disciplining, teaching, guiding! And I hear from teacher friends now that when they make the smallest attempt at 'sorting them out' some loud-mouthed pushy parent will rush into school complaining.

If children aren't respected by their parents, if parents don't earn the respect of their children, if parents take the easy route of moral neglect, everyone's lives are made poorer. Sad.

The emotional pressure of Mum holds good even when she isn't around. I experienced it a year or two ago during Freshers' Week when a young lad ended up in the middle of the road outside, on his way back to his student residence. He was singing loudly at 3 am. Out I went and told him ( in my best teacher voice) to get a grip and go home, adding for good measure, 'What would your mother think of your behaviour?' He stopped, apologised, got safely back on the pavement and headed for safety!

I was walking down the street one day when I came across a group of teenage lads from the local private school (so they would be highly privileged young people) mimicking and taking the micky out of an E European girl selling the Big Issue. They got a real flea in the ear from me I can tell you! - I told them that their Mums would be ashamed of them.

I agree, seasider, and lately also find myself retorting audibly when faced with rudeness from adults. I am more usually rendered speechless though. The other day in Asda I was carefully manoevring my trolley past an elderly lady in a huge wheelchair (who was completely ignoring me smiling at her), when it was jerked from my grasp and pulled out of his way by a man coming in the opposite direction. I didn't know who to be more cross with. Children will never learn respect for others from oiks who have none themselves.

Yes, fighting is different, especially if there are a gang of them. I'm a secondary school teacher too, so maybe it's in the genes! I've found most people back off if you confront them, maybe out of shock!

I agree entirely gettingonabit and like JessM as I've been teacher I can often say things in a way to bring about the desired result. In fact most of the local young people know (and fortunately like) me, so I don't often have a problem with juveniles. It's the twenty-somethings on their way home from the nightclub in aggressive drunken states that cause me a problem. I have been out at 2 and 3am and managed to get them to move on from in front of my house when they stop and make a racket, but when they're fighting I rely on the police.

I remember my Gran, 4ft 10in, wading in and breaking up a fight amongst teenage boys on a caravan park. Go Gran.
Because I have been a secondary school teacher I am reasonably confident about confronting kids in public. Needs to be done in a reasonable, friendly way though (Hey guys, how about some of you giving up your seats to these ladies with shopping bags?) rather than telling them off.
I think the only time I have really told kids off is when i spotted some kids about 10 yrs old trying to ignite a child's nylon coat with with a flame... Across the road and giving a safety lecture in 1 min flat.
More likely it is something like swinging on newly planted trees... "Hey, those trees have just been planted. Do you know they'll break if you do that? Please give them a chance to grow"

granny - I understand your point, but if no-one ever intervenes or stands up, nothing will ever change. I always stand up to low-level anti-social behaviour - bad language in the street, litter-dropping, poor driving etc, and so far haven't been punched in the nose.

I just wish more people were willing to get stuck in!

gettingonabit I think that you're right, but people are (often justifiably) afraid of such a situation resulting in a difficult confrontation or in a worst case scenario, violence. I am often urged not to intervene when I see or hear people behaving inappropriately in public - most recently by the police when I reported some ongoing, dangerous, anti-social behaviour. I was told never to remonstrate as it is not safe to do so.