Assisted suicide - should the law be changed?

Me again, on assisted suicide I would be very unwilling to see any change in the law. The pressures that can be put on someone, particularly when they are old and ill, to seek a quick ending when in their final decline to death can be very subtle and take place over a long period. A family discussing with an elderly person worries about the cost of care, subtle hints that the value of a house can pay for a grandchild's university education, even if they need a loan while their beloved grandparent is alive, the worry if all the money goes on care costs, horror stories about care homes.

The subtlety of covert persuasion should never be underestimated and it would be almost impossible to prove because the old person would have been very gently brain-sponged so that they would have convinced themselves that an expedited death was what they wanted. From there hard-pressed medical providers would start to openly do cost-benefit analysis to show that it is best if any one over a certain age has to have 'Do not resuscitate' written on their records.

I am with Johanna, assisted suicide is only for those in their right mind and, I would add, very clearly still masters/mistresses of their own lives.

Over the last 10 years I have been responsible for the care of three different sets of elderly relations who have been in hospital in parts of the south east as diverse as Kent, Portsmouth, Swindon and Oxford.

My experience throughout has been almost entirely that British born and educated medical staff, regardless of ethnic background, are consistently indifferent and uncaring when dealing with elderly people, particularly if there is any mental deterioration, whether dementia or simply depression. Over the ten years almost all the staff who were instinctively compassionate and caring were of foreign origin, a Dutch GP, a German A&E doctor, a Moroccan and a Filipina nurse.

It is nothing to do with nurses/doctors being overworked/understaffed it is that a caring attitude to the elderly is something that is now missing in our national psyche (not sure about that spelling). My daughter, in her late 30s, was recently in hospital following a road accident and all the staff, regardless of nationality or background were uniformly caring, thoughtful and friendly with her.

What makes me so angry is that when they talk of the elderly being a burden on the NHS they conveniently forget that the elderly in their youth and middle age paid taxes and NI stamps to fund the NHS. some of us are still contributing to the NHS through our income tax. At the time they were contributing, like the young today, they generally made few demands on the service, yet when they get old and need medical care and expect to be able to draw on the investment they have made into the NHS over forty or fifty years they are treated like spongers demading services they have done nnothing to pay for.

After reading all the contributions, two things occurred to me; One, that people seemed to be talking about 'old and vulnerable people" in the abstract. When I said I want the right to die, when I want, I was talking about myself. I don't want to live when my quality of life is unbearable. Do you?

Secondly, people are talking about care and nursing today as if in the past it was better. I was a 'ward orderly' in a geriatric ward in a cottage hospital in the 60's, when I was a student. I was shocked on a daily basis by what I saw. I still remember seeing the bed sores on a lady's back, the size of half crowns. Another horrible memory, visiting Cane Hill Mental Hospital to visit my Nan. I think in many ways things are a lot better now. My Mother died 10 years ago with care and dignity in Crawley Hospital. I can only speak from personal experience.

I have to say that my hospital experiences over the last ten years have been
very good and the nurses have been kind and attentive but about two years
ago whilst having a heart valve replacement operation I did encounter one
nurse whom I asked, a couple of days after the operation, to help me get out
of bed said we are not allowed to lift patients.....that was not what I asking for
but, before I could further explain, she marched off. Fortunately she was off
for the next few days!!! The sad part about this is that one is very vulnerable
after a major operations and should not have to try and fight one's corner!

Maxgran, I know what you mean. Even sitting thinking about it makes me feel so sad and angry. There are so many issues regarding vulnerable people like this. When we used to make afternoon visits to my BiL in hospital years ago, it used to annoy me to see incontinence bed-pads laid out on neighbouring beds. How humiliating for the person returning to bed knowing that visitors had seen this.

Greenmossgiel,.

The old man I saw was definitely not being assisted. He was being assaulted with a spoon as far as I could make out. He kept making noises which the nurse totally ignored whilst he continued his conversation with his colleague about a night out.
It really upset me to see someone being treated like that. I saw a a man in that bed,.. god knows what the stupid nurse was seeing.

As Maxgran said: In countries where this is legal the safeguards to protect the vulnerable is not satisfactory.
This is very true, I know that from bitter experience.

Yes, the law is a fudge, but it has nothing to do with the law. At the end of the day it will be YOU who has to agree. The medics will only recommend!

That must be bad enough if it is a question of switching off a life support machine , no matter what the person's age.
But the case of old people slowy going towards their end, is a different matter.

Assisted suicide is only for the compos mentis.

Does anyone else think it strange that there is fantastic terminal care being offered to some people in places called hospices that rely on charitable contributions. But that care in the NHS can vary so much for those not dying within the walls of a hospice?
My DS had a friend who died in a hospice in NZ and he (DS) was astounded by the excellence of the staff. And he's pretty picky about such things.

So simple and easy to carry out care with dignity - I wonder why anyone would treat people any differently? If they can bring some food to a patient or vulnerable care home resident, they can give this level of assistance....can't they?

A superb post, greenangel.

maxgran, that's a heartbreaking picture you've just painted. I worked for many years in the care of people who had disabilities, (some learning difficulties and some physical). Some of these people were elderly and some were 'young disabled'. A great many of these people were unable to eat their food by themselves, so they were given assistance to do so. We didn't call this 'feeding'. You can 'feed' babies. You can 'feed' animals. You do not 'feed' adult people. You assist them to have their meals. In doing so you afford them dignity. Mealtimes are 'social' occasions. A napkin would be laid where the person could see it, and if their mouths needed to be wiped during the meal, they would be asked first if it was alright to do so. An appropriate 'apron' would be placed over their clothes so that they were kept clean, but this was done according to their Care Plan and the person would have been asked if it was alright to put their apron on for them. It matters not one jot whether the person who is eating the food is considered by care staff to have no understanding of the world about them. They should still be included in any chatting that is going on, and should be given time to eat their meals in a respectful and dignified manner. It makes my blood boil to think that any 'caring' person should think differently.

When my son was in hospital there was a very elderly man in the next bed who could not do anything for himself.
At lunctime there was a male nurse sat along with another nurse, feeding the old man - just carelessly shoving food in his mouth whilst he chatted to his colleague. Most of the food was just dribbling out onto the bib the old chap had on and not once did the nurse speak to the patient or even look at him.
In the end it got too much for me and I asked the nurse why he was being so disrespectful and uncaring ! He did not have an answer.
When I reported it to the Ward sister she wasn't that bothered and said she would 'have a word'

such a difficult issue. I think things should be left as they are, as safegard quickly become tick boxes exercises, as the "safegards" put in place when abortion was legalised have become. Abortion has become the "family planning" method of choice for quite a number of women, never the intention of the new legislation. I am not against the legalisation of abortions, just pointing out the erosion of the safegards that happens overtime.
Better to make sure that doctors do not needlessly prolong life, and let people act acording to their own conscience. If I feel it to be my duty to help a love one end their life, then I would do it, and would face the concequences. The fact that you might have to justify yourself in a court of law is a safegard of sort against abuse?

My husband has just been in hospital for a Gall bladder op, which was successful he is now at home recovering, whilst in there one nurse was obsessed with everyone having to drink a lot of water, probably quite rightly but my husband found her manner very agressive. As far as David Cameron's remark about nurses speaking to patients every hour, he said there was always a nurse in his six bedded bay and he was spoken to regularly.

It is disgraceful that nurses have to be told to talk to patients. Modern nurses finding mundane tasks boring, there's a surprise! Why do some of these people go into a caring profession ? they obviously do not care. If it was a sackable offence to neglect the patients, they would soon weed out the less than diligent.

Thank you GrannieGo. It is good to know that I am not entirely alone.

On the subject of care; I read a comment from a nurse last night in response to David Cameron's call that nurses must talk to the patients in hospital (all patients) to know if they need a drink or the toilet or anything that a nurse can help with. The nurse complained that it is boring to be required to go every hour to every patient to ask the same silly questions. She claimed the patients also found it boring. The ticking of boxes to state that every patient had been questioned by rote was also boring. Do they really have a script? Do you think that someone here is totally missing the point of human care for a sick or injured human being?

I am sure we would all like care to be improved, but I think we need a change in the law, or at least some clarification.

When I say care should be improved, I meant every care including the allowance of dignity and that people shouldn't ever feel 'cared for' but loved and valued whatever troubles and indignities their condition imposes on them. Life is no rehearsal for something better.

Some of the other New Commandments are pretty biting too.

Thank you , Elegran, I had forgotten where I first heard the lines.

Greatnan I agree with all you say. It should be possible for someone who really has no life left to live (not to someone who is temporarily down - that will pass) to bypass the agonised lingering in death's waiting room. There must be adequate safeguards to protect them from greedy inheritors and lazy carers, but surely that is not beyond the abilities of legislators to set up.

Going a bit off thread - that phrase "officiously to keep alive" comes from this cynical satire on the ten commandments :-

THE LATEST DECALOGUE
Arthur Hugh Clough (1819-1861)

Thou shalt have one God only; who
Would be at the expense of two?
No graven images may be
Worshipped, except the currency;
Swear not at all; for, for thy curse,
Thine enemy is none the worse;
At church on Sunday to attend
Will serve to keep the world thy friend:
Honor thy parents; that is, all
From whom advancement may befall.
Thou shalt not kill; but needst not strive
Officiously to keep alive:
Do not adultery commit,
Advantage rarely comes of it;
Thou shalt not steal; an empty feat,
When it's so lucrative to cheat;
Bear not false witness; let the lie
Have time on its own wings to fly;
Thou shalt not covet; but tradition
Approves all forms of competition.

Nanban

For some people, however good the care,.. they do not want to be trapped in a body that does not work for them, even if the pain is managed.
Its not just about care - its about someone's dignity and their right to choose when they are ready to go.

I don't think any system will be able to cope with the horrible final effects of motor neurone disease and the only way to deal with some agonising terminal illnesses seems to be to keep one permanently sedated, so the patient might as well be dead.
We are not talking about killing, but simply making it possible for people to die at the time and place of their own choice. At the moment, people are having to go to Switzerland before it is necessary, so that they are still able to travel under their own steam. Why should they not be allowed to die in their own home, with all their family around them?
The law in the UK is a complete fudge, with the DPP saying assisting someone to bring about their own death is still illegal but they are unlikely to prosecute. What is the point of that? Patients need to know that they are not putting their families and friends at risk of prosecution.
Even the catholic church admits 'Thou must not kill, but need not strive, officiously to keep alive' - i.e. withdrawing artifcial life support systems is allowable as it is natural.
Doctors are trained to preserve life and often react badly to the death of a patient. My mother's last few years of life were a nightmare for her and my brother and sister who were caring for her. She was not in any physical pain, but in a constant state of anxiety because she did not know who she was or what was happening to her. She developed pneumonia at 90, and the doctor told my brother 'With god's help we have been able to save your mother'. For what? Another few months of wrenching anxiety. No thanks.

The idea that suicide is 'wrong' is outdated. I am not religious, do not believe in an after-life and my life is my own to prolong or end as it seems right to me when the time comes. Of course, if I become non-compos-mentis that is another matter and one that I would like to think that some sympathetic medical professional would consider on my behalf.

I've just joined this group precisely so that I can say 'Bravo, Cyril'!