To think that children in school should have some self-discipline?

My DCs went to a comprehensive school, but it was in a wealthy part of the country, and it had a v strict old fashioned head and deputy (both Welsh as was often the case in the SE). Girls still had to wear skirts and of a certain length, miscreants picked up litter from the playground.

I called in to speak to someone one day and sat in the office waiting to be seen. It was break time and the children were moving between classes (2,000+ school) and they were all smiling !!! and chatting. Happy cheerful teenagers. I'd been to secondary school in Scotland where the default expression for teens was surly and put upon. So I found this cheery atmosphere really amazing.

Just saying because I think the strict rules made things easier for the children, not harder, and what a lovely start to life it gave my DCs.

Well said.... as a Deputy, they used to call me Hitler behind my back......but when children left to go to secondary school, they always came back at that first summer break to call into the primary school to see me and tell me how they were getting on. I retired from teaching 4 years ago and went back last year to visit the primary school I had taught in. The staff there now who I worked with at the time, told me on several occasions that I was really missed because of the way I insisted that discipline was undertaken in the school - by staff and parents.

Children need boundaries that are firm and fair and sometimes the only place they get them is at school.

This made me laugh...... my in laws also called my house Stalag Crutz for the very same reason... I had expectations of behaviour of my children too - and made sure that what I expected was carried out..... my sons now each have their own business and a work ethic the envy of many of their colleagues. Yes, it does start in the home, but if parents themselves have not been brought up with this too, there's not a lot of hope of them passing it along down the generations.

Hello there ... I have had a career in teaching from ages 4 through to 65+ - in primary, secondary and further education. Whilst I feel sympathy for you, I can, from experience, say that anyone who is being taught something and then begins to mess around, does so because their interest is not being held. Regardless of age. That sounds rather cold - it's not meant to be - attention spans of children (and adults) are getting shorter and shorter BECAUSE of the new technology which they can change to suit their attention at the click of a switch. They can't do that with a human being. Also, dependent upon what their home life is like, they probably have not been taught 'how to listen' or, even more importantly, how to concentrate and talk ... hence they would not have been taught how to think about other people either. Add to this the constant 'noise' that is all around us today (where do you go for peace and quiet - the only place I can find is the local church and even then they've started to play music now)! Into all this mish mash then comes the ability of the teacher/the excitement of the children at seeing someone different ..... where was the teacher during this time.... anyone worth their salt would have organised the class and the children so that there was time to give you chance to talk/demonstrate/answer queries...

Please don't give up on them, all children need to experience things other than this narrow curriculum they are now having shoved at them ... and for some of those children in the classes you visit, your topic might be the only thing they learn about which really interests them and then can set them on a different path for learning overall........ the pebble dropped in the pond sets up many ripples and is only constrained by the limit of the hole it is in. Bless you.

I think that in the UK we have a desire for our child to succeed - which is really means that they can get lots of good qualifications and a well paid job. So from the start we try to 'bring them on' - every pushchair has a myriad of jingly jangly stuff attached, they can't lie in their cots but need tinkling rattling stuff to amuse them and teach them how to press buttons, rattle bells etc.
I read Why French Children Don't Throw Food and (although it is about a very select group of wealthy Parisian famililes) they seem to be trying to mould ?sp the whole child. Piles of coloured plastic don't come into it. Children are encouraged to spend time alone and amuse themselves, it is good for them.
Someone mentioned to me that when an American baby or toddler is brought into a room ALL attention is on it and they then grow up with an inflated sense of entitlement.
As the mother of 3 now grown up children whose friends nicknamed their home Stalag13 because I supposedly ran such a strict house and the DCs had to do soooo much to help (not true - just that their friends did nothing!) I would say it is a combination of all the above issues.

I agree that every parents want to put in all the qualities that will help him succeed in life in their child . So, self discipline is very important ingredient to take the child ahead. “A proper school management and creative tasks” may be very helpful to engage child with his work. So, children will not get time to mess up with each other.

I can't see how it helps for teachers to blame parents and for parents to blame teachers. Those who care, be they parents or teachers, have to live with the situation as it is and do the best they can in the circumstances. There was discipline in my classes at school and they were big classes. My children went to infants and junior schools with big classes but I believe now they must be no bigger than 30 children. Children are well able to cope with different levels of discipline and very soon know what is acceptable in different environments. My GS at the age of 22 months knew that if his other GM told him he must eat his dinner before pudding he didn't have to but the very next day when I said the same he knew I meant it! This illustrates that they get away with what they can when they are allowed to. He also understands about waiting for things and that he can't always do what he wants to do.

When my son was at boarding school and his Eng Lit teacher told me he didn't always hand in his prep. I asked her what she did about it (I couldn't do anything I was 100 miles away!) and she said "he is so charming, I forgive him" She seemed to have taught him that charm works and lets you get away with things! Actually at 34 he is still charming!

Thank you granbunny.

printmiss, manners, spot on.

I agree. Once children know what's expected of them, most of them are actually happy to comply. It's when mixed messages are given that problems occur.

In relation to the OP I think there are a couple of issues here. I agree with bags that classroom control is in the hands of the teacher and he/she is wholly responsible for discipline within the classroom. If there are several potentially disruptive pupils this can be something of an upward battle, but nevertheless I believe that in the interests of all the children a well ordered classroom is vital. Children are very good at compartmentalising behaviour and although I've had many pupils who have (reportedly) been extremely badly behaved at home, they soon learn that I won't tolerate such behaviours in the classroom.

School is not natural but it is compulsory today in this country (or home tutoring).

Natures ratio is mostly adults, a few babies, a few very elderly and the rest in between in a pre-industrial society. Children would be allowed to blossom and develop in the company of all ages. What can children give to other children of the same age? surely no where near as much as mixed age groups. Children copy and learn that way. What can be better than a mixture of activities, people, nature, work, conversations that they can participate in?

Teachers were always complaining about my children's behaviour at school. One twin was too lively the other twin was too quiet. What about when they were at home when their behaviour was very different? did I go to the teacher and blame them and the school? of course not so why vica versa. We went without many things to send them to a Steiner school where co-operation is fostered (not competition) and the same 10 in a class for 7 years.

Sorry I think you should blame the system and modern society mothers have to parent them in not the children

Pretty soon the whole country will be landed in the same kind of mess if Michael Gove's 'reforms' take root!

Annobel I agree with you. I think Trafford's school system is a dog's dinner - there is elitism amongst parents, children and teachers, and the children who go to the high schools get into unhealthy rivalries with the grammar and prep schools children.

PRINTMISS, please don't shut up! I like it when someone agrees with me.

whenim talking about your local authority - yes, I have heard about that as it's not a million miles from the one I lived in. That's what a selective system does for children! Without unduly boasting, I believe our system was better!

Annobel, just back after a day out, and joined in again; I do so agree with you. I often say that my generation has a great deal to answer for, having lived through some stringent times, wanted the best for our children, and told them to go for it, which they did, although this of course is a different trend from the theme which was started. So I will just shut up now.

Have seen lots of positive Y6-Y7 transition programmes such as the good one mamie describes but seen lots of kids struggle at transition because some teachers do not see the children as people but as 'students' who have to fit their programme. Y6 and Y7 where life is a more gradual and sensitive move to the different way of working /learning at secondary level benefits teachers as well as the youngsters in the long run.

The project I was involved in was not so much about direct feeder liaison, but more curriculum focussed. The secondary subject teachers (English, Maths and ICT as I recall) visited and observed over half a term and there was some joint teaching by the primary and secondary teachers and a lesson delivered by the secondary teacher alone in the primary classroom. Then there was follow-up in September and the Year 6 teacher taught the children a lesson in Year 7. It really helped get under the skin of the curriculum expectations and allowed the children to show what they could do.

anno and jings, yes!

Re wanting primary schools to be more like secondary schools. Yeah, right! And have you heard the one about universities wanting secondary schools to be more like tertiary schools. All top down as usual. Humph!

It is the norm for secondary schools to have feeds from several (or even lots of) primary schools. It always has been. Teachers of first year secondary school pupils ought to have developed reasonable coping methods by now (and many have, in conjunction with the primary schools). If they haven't, they are not doing the job properly. If the strategies a school has don't work, they need to make changes until they do, but nothing is going to remove the fact that the transition from primary to secondary school throws up problems for the kids and their teachers. That's life!

That could work well where the primary school is the main feeder school into the secondary school Annobel. In Trafford, there are a lot of grammar schools, and my grandson sat exams for five (every Saturday for five weeks - don't get me started on that one!) and ended up at the nearest one, which was fortunate for him. However, the grammar school he attends takes pupils from all over the borough, so there is just one other child from the same school in his class. They have different attainment levels, and the teachers have commented that this system does make it difficult to find a comfortable level for the children in the first year.

Any school with which I've been associated either as a Chair of a local authority education committee (when such things still existed), or as a governor, has had excellent primary school liaison policies and several secondary teachers whom I know now are heavily involved with partner primaries. In these cases, I believe the children are as well prepared as it's possible to be. The primary school of which I was chair of governors was on an adjacent campus to the secondary school and had frequent contact with staff and students.

granbunny, I don't quite know what you mean about primary schools being so different from secondary schools. How could they not be? They're for a different age group. Surely secondary schools try to make the transition between the two systems as gradual as possible. They did when mine were at school. They had a lower schol, middle school and upper school. What more could they do?

I would say that the only primary school I have any contact with these days is a thoughtful and caring place where the teachers do their best to educate the children within the various remits set by the government.

Annobel

It's all very well to blame the parents, but who brought up the parents?