to ask for help with 5 yrolds grandsons home work(Venn diagrams) etc

I agree Jacey...homework is set for OFSTED rather than the children. I have no problem with small amounts being set from the beginning of year 5 and gradually increasing to the end of year 6 ( but not huge amounts). This will help them be ready for secondary homework.

I was a primary teacher and I constantly came up against impossible requirements. What we need to produce is well rounded people not little automatons who can churn out the required responses to pass exams but have little understanding/knowledge of anything else.

The first thing we need to do is reduce the curriculum. Do you know how many subjects a five year old primary child has to study....Literacy, Phonics, Numeracy, Science, RE, PE, History, Geography, PSHCE, Art, Music, Design and Technology. 12!!!! Then there are the extras that aren't officially in the curriculum but are expected such as each class having it's own allotment. I have no problem with the allotments. It's a great idea and the children love it because it's so hands on but it's yet another thing to do. Teachers try to fit everything in by grouping some into Topics but it's still impossible.

I went to school in the sixties. We didn't start school until we'd had our fifth birthday. We did reading, writing, sums, RE, art and PE. Every day after lunch we put our heads on our desks for a nap. We didn't start history or geography etc until we were in the juniors by which time the basics for most of us were in place. Oddly I turned out to be a pretty well educated person.

yes Bags ...it is one of the Ofsted things ...they will look for the policy and whether the time set is correct for each year group

That's good to hear. I agree about the problem of requests for things to be done at home at the last minute too. My daughter works full time in London and has complex arrangements for dropping off and picking up and gets driven mad when the school expects her to be available to do stuff at the last minute. I always feel very guilty that I am not nearby when a costume needs to be made or cakes sent in!

I'm very, very pleased with my youngest daughter's primary school learning environment, mamie. Also with the whole school atmosphere and ethic. To be honest, I think the staff would ditch the homework policy like a hot brick if they didn't feel it would bring down the inspectors' assessment.

DD has had a very happy, productive and successful time at primary school which will stand her in good stead for the start of her secondary school career later this month.

Hi Mamie no I don't think the majority of primary school is mechanistic (I think the education system as a whole, its policies and government initiatives, are mechanistic), and I really appreciate the creative things children can do in school. . And I do mean IN school because children can do other creative and enjoyable things with their parents without having to do homework, or their poor mums having to dash about trying to put something together like a pirate or a dinosaur outfit for some event later in the week at school. Too many instructions get sent home for children and parents to do in their home time, but we don't/can't send in instructions for teachers. I chuckle at the idea of sending in some uniform labels and asking the teacher if they wouldn't mind sewing them on for little Johnny by Friday next.

If only all that you describe could be contained in school time and anything beyond that to be voluntary, then children could have some down time to just play, socialise or even be at a loose end, instead of having their little lives crammed with activity that they haven't chosen or been inspired by.

I was a school governer at my children's primary school and one of the most common complaints was about schools sending instructions home for things to be done in home time.

Staying out of the homework issue, but do people really think learning in primary schools is mechanistic? My grandaughters do loads of brilliant, creative stuff at their infant and junior schools; Greek days, space days (complete with costumes), loads of stuff in the local environment, brilliant displays, hugely creative learning environment, music, dance, art, theatre, vists etc etc
This is no different from the stuff I saw all the time as an adviser / inspector. I remember one book week in a primary school, when every day the children from the Design and Technology department of the local secondary school came down and created a new "magic door" for a book that would provide the theme of the day.
Lovely stuff and masses of learning coming out of it.

Education implies school and formal learning, which obscures the fact that most learning at school is either self-directed or informal. Informal learning is effective because it is personal and the individual learner is responsible.

What children learn, they learn from other people — parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, playmates, cousins, scouts, school friends, study groups, coaches and each other. Sometimes they even learn from teachers.

I learned to read and write at home before I started school at 4.1/2. I always enjoyed language and literature and would read everything I could get hold of.

I continue to maintain that we get an education despite school when the present system is so mechanistic. School is meant to be a healthy learning environment where children can flourish, not be fearful of disapproval because they enjoy a home life and play/leisure time. I used to sit with my children when they had homework at secondary school (none from primary) and felt I shouldn't impose my beliefs on them, but I didn't encourage them to spend more than a short time on homework until they were in their teens and thinking about what subjects they wanted to obtain GCSE and A levels in.

How are calculations done that can dictate that a primary school child must have the same length of working day as their parents? If we can come home and have a few hours of leisure time before bed, why can't children be accorded the same privilege?

Well, I only have experience of two Scottish schools so far. DD1 started at one in Edinburgh at the age of four and a half. The teacher wanted to speak to me because D wasn't doing her "reading" at home. I went mad (politely), and reminded the woman that the child was four! I said I didn't care if she didn't learn to read during her first year at school because she would learn when she was ready. I told the woman that the child was tired after a day at school and needed to play and to choose for herself. The woman gave me a look but shut-up. We then moved to England and the school there did not ask the kids to do homework until the later Thatcher years, by which time my older kids had moved on.

The English school DD3 started at was terrible. High up in the league tables but not Children centred enough. I was glad to get away as I would have had a hard time with the HT there who was a box-ticker extraordinaire! The Scottish school HT accepted my announcement that DD would not be doing homework and any teacher who raised the subject got a copy of the letter I'd sent to the HT when she raised it telling them, politely, to back off. My PGCE dissertation was about parental involvement/power.

Meanwhile all three of my daughters did very well at school, as did all their uncles and aunts who also never did any homework at primary level.

Meanwhile also I was very active as a school governor so they could hardly say I didn't 'support' school.

Why can't schools set optional homework for those who have such boring lives that they think they need it pushy parents who want it, and leave the rest alone? .... Because it isn't about education at all is the answer to that; it's just bossiness and control and ticking "aren't we wonderful" boxes.

[Rides quietly away on high horse]!!!

Yes Bags ...so much in primary 'education' is ticking boxes!! but this particular one was driven by the last government and the present government have kept it in play!!

Surprised that the scottish schools do it too ...as so much of your system is different to that in England

I would do that as a responsible parent, nutty and, as a responsible teacher, I would accept that as reasonable. Any other approach is pure bullying. What right have schools to dictate what children do when they are not at school? Answer: none.

Another good site is maths zone. I work in a junior school and I am amazed at the sort of subjects they have to cover, the sorts of things we would have done at secondary level. Do not worry if he is not ready yet. My grandson got lots of homework at junior level AND they got detention if it was not done! When they have other activities like swimming lessons and cubs etc it is too much. I sometimes used to say to my son (his Dad) that he ought to put a note in the book along the lines of "the sun came out this week for the first time in ages so we have spent our time playing outside instead!) but he is a responsible parent trying to do his best so that just did not happen . But surely at this level any reasonable school would accept this?

I totally agree that parents are responsible and majority take that seriously.

I think it does help to engage some parents in their kids learning and that then has a positive impact for the child. I think good homework makes that link between home /school so that parents and children see that learning is not the domain of school / home alone! Pages of exercises or copying up work is a waste of time! Also anything a child cannot do without huge support!

I think half an hour is more than enough homework time for children building up to an hour max as they get older... but again only if it is good homework! Otherwise better to be out playing with pals, gardening,climbing etc or indoors with lego, a DVD or even honing skills on a computer game! Kids need 'down time' too. Sometimes parents fill kids time up with activities .

And to whom? The kids or the parents?

Crossed post. How does it make a difference?

Hmm. What you say suggests that the parents don't care rather than don't know.

Why should schools do all the pushing? I've always thought that parents were responsible for educating their children. They are, by law. School is only one aspect of a child's education. Attitudes to education are learned at home, or not, as you say. I'm not sure that should be assumed to be the responsibility of schools.

One of the kids in my Cub Pack has not been able to come for some months now because he has too much homework and his mum has a hard time getting him to do it. He's eight years old. He's a bright kid and, in my opinion, is simply rebelling against the constant grind, but because his parents send him to a private school, they feel they have to push. Poor kid is all I can say.

Likewise those who belong to families who don't care about education – poor kids.

I'm still waiting to be convinced that set homework actually does any good though.

We have had similar discussions on GN before and nearly all the teachers who took part were not in favour of homework at primary school level. I'm just one of those. I suppose there's no point hoping the government will ever actually listen to teachers though. More

I think it is all about the quality and type of homework, how well it links to what has been taught in school & the quality of feedback children get when it has been done .

Homework in itself will not improve anything but good homework set & managed by good teachers can make a difference!

bags it is shocking but sadly too many children have no idea what school is about! Their families have not prepared them for school by talking about it in a positive way. Several families I have worked with did not worry at all that their children were not making any progress with their learning .They wanted the kids looked after and that was it! Fortunately they were the minority but not rare!
Again I am sure many teachers on GN can recount families who thought schools pushed kids too hard and and and equal number of families who felt the kids were not being pushed hard enough!

heard a parent the other day who felt that because her child was so 'unique' she allowed her to 'do as she wants really' and when she is six (why six?) she will start asking her to comply with adult requests.... really

Is there any proper research which actually proves that giving primary school children homework does any good?

that's fine, nanaej. I understand the pressures on schools. That's what I object to really. There's too much of it and it is constantly changing.

With regard to parents who don't understand what schooling is about, all I can say is . How can anyone not know what schooling is about?

That said, the social aspect is equally important. We are social animals and people who lack social skills are at a disadvantage throughout life.

bags I agree up to a point. Kids who arrive at school motivated and excited to learn usually get on well with or without homework being set. I stopped reading school readers with my girls as they were too tedious and I had heard them too many times at work!!

Sadly some kids arrive and see school as a social environment only and need support to engage in the learning activities. So sometimes (good) homework helps families to understand that school is about learning ... though too often it does not! But for those that it helps it is worth it.

Schools are under enormous pressure from central government to show 'results' so not surprising homework is sometimes used to try to improve them! If kids not where government think they should be and school is not using homework then inspectors may view that as evidence that the school is not doing all it can to improve standards! rock and a hard place comes to mind

That's not as silly as it sounds. Kids who are 'engaged' at school do homework without being asked, as mine all have. That is they consolidate what they do at school at home by talking about it, asking questions about what they didn't understand, grousing about stuff that annoyed them, practising their reading, writing, drawing, and playing with numbers. All this voluntarily. Result: they do well at school.

What they don't need (and mine never did it) is set tasks, i.e. school work to do at home.

In homes where all the above doesn't happen naturally, I have yet to be convinced that set homework does any good at all. Parents/familes who have a good attitude to education do "voluntary homework" with their kids all the time without any of the harassment and stress of set school tasks.

Setting homework for primary school kids is just an "aren't we good?" box-ticking exercise for schools.

I wonder when schools will start asking the kids if they want homework.

We did not push homework at my school but 50% parents wanted it 505 did not! Difficult for schools.. we tried to devise activities that ware play based or 'find out about' type of things that all children could do without any special equipment or over zealous parental intervention!

Well done Bags. I wish more parents would rebel. I think reading practise is important but the rest....well they're children...let them play.

Bravo Bags I would do the same!