To feel sorry for commuting toddlers!

i was a single mum and had to go out to work to support my 2 or live on benefits, it was hard in the 60,s. i lost countless jobs because i didnt have anyone to look after the kids on their summer holidays...i had a childminder now and then if i could afford it, my mother didnt help me it was a case of you made your bed you lie on it, ! i help my children with their children when needed as i know what it is like, they cant afford child care,,,and i dont want anyone else to look after my grandkids. i dont get paid..i do it to help out and i have fun times with the kids, but i do get tired,,,,and find it hard to amuse them sometimes. my children have turned out lovely i am very proud of them...but we have our moments....but thats life i guess, i just look forward when all is well and they dont have to worry about all this...but then there will be something else to worry about wont there,,,,,,,,,i too had to get up early and walk so far then watch them walk to my freinds house before she took them to school with her kids,....i didnt have a car...but we got through,,,when i look back,,i can laugh now,,,i should write a book, familys these days havent lived,,,im sure us grans can tell them all a few stories.

Absolutely Mishap when taking my GS to preschool I saw so many two to three year old's getting into such a state about being left there and they were mainly children whose mothers could have kept them at home but obviously thought this was doing them good (character building I suppose!) The children were distraught, the mothers were distraught, the preschool staff were stressed trying to settle the children down. Children are ready for these experiences when they're ready, you can't push them all into it and expect them all to enjoy it.

I think that the assumption that nursery is good for little ones is not valid. It is good for some and not for others, and, in my view, is inappropriate for under-3s. If both parents have to work, then better that a very little one should be with a nanny, a childminder or a family member - one person to relate to and feel secure with.

I think you're right nightowl I looked after my grandson five days a week between the ages of six months and five years, he was mainly in his own home and the change overs between me and Mummy were pretty seamless. He just never seemed the sort of baby who would settle happily in a nursery. It will be interesting to see how his new brother will turn out, will he be a much more easygoing happy to go anywhere baby? Also, I'm six years older now, will I be able to put in another five years??

I agree with everything you say GadaboutGran. I see both styles in my family and both children are loved and secure. However, in terms of the child's experience I feel sure that the best place for under threes is at home with one or a small number of loving, attentive carers, whoever they are. I don't think it's just a question of how they turn out as adults, it's about their whole experience of childhood.

So much depends on the type of childcare & the nature & needs of the parents - and all children cope differently. But I do think this is a crucial issue for the under 2s when developing attachments is so important. I keep my mouth shut about my grandson being sent to Nursery full-time as a parent feeling guillty has even worse consequences. How do we know if a child really 'suffers' or not until much later in life. I can cope with parents being honest about why they are doing what they are doing but I hate the stories they have to tell themselves to justify their choices. Surely a very young child cannot socialise well until they have learnt to trust & deal with separation from parents. What happens to all the stress (cortisol) that builds up inside them when mum or dad aren't there to pick them up when they are unhappy? I always think having a good nanny or childminder is better than a nursery for the under 2s. On the other hand I also know that having my smothering mother 24/7 probably had a bad impact on me. My other granddaughter asks "why can't mummy go to work so I can go to After-school Club" - but she's older. She might not like it every day til 6.00pm.

Two GC were at nursery full time, but it was close to the school where DiL works and she could be contacted at any time. DS has a job which allows a certain amount of flexibility. They are now 10 and 8, well balanced, independent and sociable and very close to their parents. Other two GSs were part-time at nursery to fit in with the part-time contract their mum negotiated with her employer. They had a good relationship with their key worker who still babysits them now that they are at school (7 and 5). Both pairs have fantastic dads who do things with them outside school hours and at weekends. Just wish I lived closer, but I do manage to see them around once a month.

I have two daughters. One has two sons and went back to work when the first one was 9mths old, working part time 3 days a week and did the same with the second boy. My other daughter gave up work when she had her first child and has not gone back to work. Her first child started nursery school at 3yrs old and the 1yr old is at home with my daughter. Different approaches. I always felt sorry for the two boys who were in creche from 9 mths old. Broke my heart. I couldn't help as they lived in Europe.

I've always felt the first two years of a child's life is very important and that this, if possible, should be spent with their parents. Maybe I'm old fashioned.

I was lucky. I gave up work when I had my first daughter and didn't back until they were 10 and 12 years old. I wouldn't have wanted it any other way.

The key to it all is quality - if the substitute care is good then it's fine - but sometimes it is difficult to find the right place within the right distance.

Ditto the care at home - if mums are engaging with their children in the jobs (shopping, cooking etc.) and providing some stimulation then fine,; if they are sitting them in front of the TV then not fine at all.

But I do worry about the tired working parents.

I know what you mean though. But to be honest, I also feel sorry for little ones with mums who stick them in front of the telly all day, or take them around shops all day.

If working means that mum is tired, but fulfilled and happy, confident, etc- and loves spending time with her children the rest of the time - instead of being depressed at the ktichen sink- then there is something to be said for it.

Mind you - a young couple I know stick their kids in boarding school all week. He works and she has to have time for horse riding, coffee mornings and shopping... What really irks me is that they make the kids stay at boarding school on Friday nights so they can go on a jolly!

It does seem sad that some children seem to be out so early and back so late that they don't seem to get any "home life" at all. No just mucking around doing nothing much at all and the parents must hardly get to see them sometimes. Admittedly my daughter has been lucky, her husband is teaching now so is at home for most of the school holidays and her work as a research scientist means she can be quite flexible (if she doesn't mind working till 1am at times). It surely can't be a good thing that many women who don't have exciting, fulfilling careers but just "jobs" that they have to do to pay the mortgage are stuck working longer hours to pay for child care for children they would rather like to look after themselves.

There are plenty of middle class children being 'encouraged' to attend extra coaching in sports, music, or academic work most nights of the week. Now I do feel sorry for them!

They go to the after-school club until their mother finishes work, which can be 6 o'clock some days.

Ana Surely if the child is five or six, she would be at school anyway, regardless of whether her mother is working.

Of course. I know full well that my DD has to go to work to pay the mortgage and the bills, and I know that it's only my old-fashioned, sentimental view of how childhood should be that makes me feel sorry for my GDs. They do all get very tired, though, and to see a child of 5 or 6 with shadows under her eyes struggling to stay awake long enough to eat her tea can be heartbreaking.

I am sure all your daughters or DIL have thought very carefully about putting the children into day care - perhaps some of them would prefer to stay at home for a few years, but just can't afford it, and perhaps some of them feel the need to get away from domesticity and get satisfaction from their work. Whatever their reasons, I think it is very important that nobody implies that they are doing anything wrong. They almost certainly have wrestled with their decision and arrived at a solution that seems the best compromise for the whole family.

DD usually aims to get little boys to nursery around 8 so that she can be in university by 9, the traffic being what it is ,a 10 minute drive can easily turn into half an hour. I don't think they mind as they are awake at sparrow-fart anyway, but if I stop and think that they probaly have 60 years of that sort of morning start, if not earlier, I do get depressed. (If you don't know what sparrow fart is - use your imagination! )

It all hinges on the quality of care that the children get and the distance that they have to travel - if there is no high quality care facility within a reasonable distance then I do think that the children suffer - it is an unavoidable conclusion.

There is also the problem of children being outside parental influence at a very young and impressionable age - do we want our children to absorb attitudes and habits that we may not be happy with? For example the pre-school that my GS attends sits them in front of the TV for half an hour each afternoon watching things that he would not be allowed to watch at home. AS thye get plder and can discuss thewse things with their parents it is a bit different, but very young children are a different matter.

And of course there is the quality of the home life that results from exhausted parents caring for exhausted children each evening after all of them have been out and travelling in the course of a very long day.

Yes, I know...

I know I still worry Ana (even I'm not perfect!)
Actually, nursery is good for her, she gets to socialise, play with lots of messy stuff like sand and water, and gets a lot of stimulation that a tired nana or a busy mum probably wouldn't give her.

I would still rather have her at home with her mum.

I have very mixed feelings about this issue. It does upset me some mornings when my granddaughter has to be hurried out into the cold and dark to get to nursery.

Her "commute" is hardly very long though. It's less than 10 minutes on the tram.

The thing is that I don't want to give up my reasonably well-paid job to look after her and my daughter doesn't want to be a stay at home mother either.

I worked freelance from home while looking after my own children because it seemed like the right thing to do and I don't regret it at all. Even though it is hypocritical I think my granddaughter is actually better off at nursery especially as she is an only child.

No Greatnan she doesn't complain but she always looks tired, she hardly eats and is very thin so probably does not have a lot of energy.

harrigran, does she say she is unhappy with the situation?

My youngest GD is happy at her childminder in the village instead of the early morning car ride to nursery, she gets to stay in bed a little longer and therefore not so grizzly. I feel sorry for eldest GD on the days she has to go to breakfast club and after school club, means schhool day is 8am to 6pm.

Quite, merlot!