EU - in or out?

I have changed my mind that many times I am doing t a virtual hokey cokey in my head !

In for business

Out for the dictatorship that is Brussels.

I would vote to stay in.

I do think that the EU should itself have a built in review system for its various aspects. But I agree that if you join a club you cannot then complain and only follow the rules you like!

I think a lot of No votes sit with people who are under the illusion that Britain is still a colonial nation and are not voting No for economic reasons but are chasing a bygone era! Perhaps it is because I equate No votes to the right of politics and I am instinctively a 'leftie' that i would vote In! Not the most informed way to vote I agree.

I know that there are knowledgable economists on both sides.. I am not an economist & tbh do not really properly understand the economic arguments for or against!

To answer my own question it would have to be IN.

Like many others I'd like some sort of re-negotiation of terms, but that's not going to happen.

However, I do think there's scaremongering as to what our trade position would be if we came out, but we are one the biggest trading countries in the EU and the world and other countries would still want to do business.

Out, out, out!

I think the EU should be compared to the Politbureau in Soviet Russia - there is absolutely no democracy about it at all. The Accounts haven't been written off in donkeys' years, then there is the moving between Strasbourg and Brussels which happens all the time (just to help the French). The money that is wasted on accommodation (see the weekend "Telegraph" - horrendous stories). The way that they fudged the rules about the euro and then, in Greece and Italy, installed their own men to run the country.

Why on earth does anyone think that if we came out of the EU we wouldn't be allowed to trade with them? It is a fact that some of the trade figures which show that we have so much trade with Europe is because goods are shipped to Rotterdam for onward transit to elsewhere in the world, but that is counted as EU trade.

One of the other things which annoys me is the number of counrties which ignore the rules that we are given whilst we follow them to the letter and beyond.

And those of you who say "what about all those Britons living and working in the EU?" - they made that decision, and there is nothing to say that they would all have to come home - if they are good at their work, no doubt their company will keep them on. To be honest, I am not sure that being able to work anywhere in the EU is necessarily a good thing - yes, if you have a job to go to, but no if you are just going on spec and using the benefits of the country to get by on.

You can see that I think the EU is almost an evil thing - and it is destined to fail, just like countries like the former Yugoslavia which fell apart eventually.

And don't, for one moment, think that all is sweetness and light between our EU partners - my DH worked for an international company and the French and the Germans positively detested one another!

I believe I would say Out ,

We seem to abide by the rules and a lot of the others don"t .

hmmmm

I don't think, at this stage, any of us is well informed enough to vote. I hope that before it happens we are given a lot more information.

I think this speech was a mistake, done for political reasons in an attempt to placate the Right. There is so much wrong though and it needs to be addressed. As someone mentioned, we actually joined a 'Common Market' a trade organisation and the average person is unhappy with the perception that we are being ruled by Brussels. As a country too, we grab EU regulations with both hands and then add a few more, just for us - reminds me of that poem by Philip Larkin There isn't consistency across Europe as a trading entity, no conformity of taxes and legislation is not uniformily adopted.

Many people too are concerned about immigration and our open border and benefit system. This is not the case in all countries so I hardly think there is the level playing field Europe supposedly provides.

As for any suggestion that people aren't intelligent enough to make a decision via a referendum and we should just leave it to our elected politicians, who do know, well pish to that. One thing to be sure of, now DC has made this statement, you'll be inundated with information from both sides. Oh joy

I think Nigel Farage's apparent rise is behind this speech - UKIP's threat to stand in Tory marginals has forced Cameron's hand.

It is a pity that the only serious debate about EU membership has emerged as result of a fringe party, led by a less than serious character.

Both major parties have fudged the issue for far too long.

As an aside, I'd forgotten how many major figures from the left were/are anti EU e.g. Tony Benn, Peter Shore, Eric Heffer, Michael Foot.

GillyB How can we be sure that the remaining EU countries would allow the Brits to stay and work there? Many Brits have made their lives and homes in other countries in good faith as have people from the rest of the EU in GB.

I am totally in agreement with nelliemoser - the issues are very complex and I do not pretend to understand them all. A lot of people would vote on emotive issues, like some of the nonsensical rulings that interfere with our lives (e.g. car insurance for women) when in fact the big issues are the ones that really matter.

It is a bit of political window dressing and a sop to the potential UKIP voters. It would be highly expensive and meaningless.

Maybe every person who turns up to vote should have to take a short test first which would weed out those like me who do not have a proper grasp of all the implications!

Can I remind everyone that apart from the initial referendum about joining what was then the EEC under the aegis of Ted Heath (Conservative PM), we had another referendum about staying in 1975(?). How many times do we think we should do this?

re remember when Ann Widdicombe said of Michael whathisname 'something of the night about him'? Maybe 'something of the golf club' about Mr Farage. Being studiously pc here.

In. The economy would suffer too much if we were not in. And I have not faith at all that he could, after an election, negotiate a package that would somehow allow us to stay in but opt out of bits and pieces of the whole package.
There would be only one real vote grabber, which would be restricting the right of EU nationals to come here and work without a work visa.
He's pushed this out beyond the next general election. He didn't manage to win last time, and this time he is going to be the guy who brought us 5 years of economic cuts and hard times. All this new stance on Europe might achieve is to retain some votes that otherwise might have gone to UKIP in the next general election and quell the unrest in the parliamentary tory party.
I cant really believe that the majority of tory party donors want out

I don't think we can be sure about anything where Europe is concerned Movedalot whether we stay in or move out !

oops sorry don't think question was directed at me

Anyway I do think that if a country such as France or Germany actually recruited someone from outside their country to do a specific job then that person must be the best good at what they do and I think their job would be safe. Unlike the UK I think the other members look after their own first.

gillybob my point was not about whether their company would want them to stay, I think that is a given. It was whether the EU governments would allow them to stay.

I know Movedalot but I still think that if they were better than any "home grown" applicants then the host country would probably need want them to stay too.

Definitely in - the UK would become totally isolated and suffer terribly if out. If the UK is boycotted by the rest of Europe- it would sink very very fast. Which does not mean some issues do not need to be addressed. I am very afraid that too many without really studying the facts, will vote with their heart and lose their head (and job int he process).

Just curious , wonder how many people thought we should go in originally .?

I believe we have been shafted , time and time again .

No absent, you can't remind me. Peoples' perception is we signed up to a common market. Market being the key word.

We are a net importer from Europe. Just saying .

Granjura why would the UK be boycotted by the rest of Europe?

Hello, Granjura, glad to see you back. But I don't quite get the logic of your argument. Is Switzerland boycotted by the rest of Europe, or do you envisage the EU doing this in revenge for the UK withdrawing?

riverwalk Michael Howard! Sorry, on a phone so don't want to scroll back too far but this refers back to your mention of Nigel Farage.

Switzerland cannot be compared with the UK - it has never been part of the EU and has managed, somehow, to get the best of both worlds.

It is sometimes difficult to gauge the temperature and feelings from outside, when you 'in', especially on an island. Because the UK is always seen as 'cherry picking', because of the unwilligness to learn languages, and perhaps because of the war in Irak and before in the Falklands - there is a lot of anti feeling in Europe. The UK does need to export to survive.

Iraq and the Falklands?