Gransnet forums


is it " virtue signalling" or just a good thing?

(200 Posts)
PECS Wed 05-Dec-18 09:26:50

Some schools are suggesting donations to the town foodbank rather than gifts for teachers...

GabriellaG Wed 05-Dec-18 19:47:18

IMO, religion was and is a method of instilling fear in those who look to others, supposedly more knowledgeable, for guidance. The fear of offending an unknown, never seen deity, together with the thought of being denied access to 'heaven' and an everlasting life was and is used to keep people in line and. Marry that thought to the fact that people think praying can bring about cures, wishes and benefits to sufferers of whatever and you have a fantasy woven by men who had hung around like nomads with a 34 yr old man for years on end. A man who was purportedly born through miraculous insemination by someone never seen or heard at any time in any place in the universe.
Just like the brothers Grimm, the bible is a fairy story.
If you believe in JC then you believe he was a Jew, born in Judea, therefore any other religion is a falsehood.
Dec 25th is just a day.

Iam64 Wed 05-Dec-18 19:52:48

I'm stunned by silverlining's post about the huge cash expectation toward gifts for teachers. That must be brought to the attention of governors and if it's a Church school, to the Bishop. Disgusting.

I agree with the majority here, who believe that donations of food for food banks should replace the giving of gifts to teachers at the end of every term.

maryeliza54 Wed 05-Dec-18 20:11:47

Bringing it up with governors couldn’t be fine anonymously and anyway they are almost certainly on side.A very polite factual letter to the Bishop or whoever could be anonymous and would explain why it had to be anonymous because clearly this little scam is very popular isn’t it with the staff ( if it wasn’t they could stop it -)

Melanieeastanglia Wed 05-Dec-18 21:19:13

I think it's a good idea.

mcem Wed 05-Dec-18 22:06:05

I am horrified that these £25 donations are suggested, gathered in and given. As a retired teacher I 'm for the "homemade card and box of maltesers" approach!
I'd have been thoroughly embarrassed by this, but I (and my colleagues) would have stamped on it as soon as it was suggested. There's clearly a very different mindset in some of the more exclusive C of E schools.

Rosina Wed 05-Dec-18 22:11:03

Disgraceful. A church school too - what an example! It's almost like going back to the days when priests used to demand money to say prayers for the recently deceased so that their souls wouldn't stay in purgatory, which state was an invention of the church. Yet another way of wringing money out of those who often couldn't afford it. I would be straight to the local newspapers if the bishop or governors were dismissive.

maryeliza54 Wed 05-Dec-18 22:19:24

The teachers are clearly happy with this and going to the governors with this is an absolute non starter. Given the Christian ethos ( silver said her dd was chased for the balance) so sorely lacking in this school I’m sure any parent who complained (and their children) would suffer the consequences . That’s why it would have to be an anonymous letter to someone in the Church hierarchy. I expect this goes on at other schools - how sad that they continue to get away with it.

Jalima1108 Wed 05-Dec-18 22:22:42

Gabriella I didn't say I believed or did not believe; I just said that, contrary to what you said, giving to others, to the poor, is mentioned in the NT as part of the message from Jesus, whether he be the Son of God or a nomadic rebel.

If you do not wish to give to others less well off than you who have fallen on hard times, that is fine. Luckily, plenty of people do.

Jalima1108 Wed 05-Dec-18 22:24:20

Bringing it up with governors couldn’t be fine anonymously and anyway they are almost certainly on side
Do you think so? I'm not sure. I do know parent governors who are on the side of what is right and this suggestion by the school does not seem right at all.

SueDonim Wed 05-Dec-18 22:30:48

£25 per child?? shock

Jalima1108 Wed 05-Dec-18 22:31:40

And extremely bad manners

maryeliza54 Wed 05-Dec-18 22:49:27

I think the risk of bringing it up with the governors would be too great - the parent governors at least know what is happening and are therefore implicated in the problem - could they be trusted? Why would a parent trust them? I wouldn’t, would anyone else? Anyway this is all somewhat hypothetical I suppose but I’m just saying what I would do in this situation

mritson Wed 05-Dec-18 23:16:28

virtue signalling

gillybob Wed 05-Dec-18 23:16:57

Some of these posts almost make me laugh. Parent governors? PTA? grin

Jalima1108 Wed 05-Dec-18 23:25:17

Why should a parent governor not want the best interests of the children and, in this case, the parents?

What kind of schools do your DGC go to if they want anything less?

grannybuy Wed 05-Dec-18 23:25:30

When teaching, I received gifts from some pupils. Unlike most of my colleagues, I never opened them in front of the class, so as not to remind or hint to others that a gift was required. I always sent home a thank you letter. I don't think gifts are required at all. If parents want to show their appreciation, all they have to do is say thank you when they see you, or write a note or message on a card. I'm all for the food bank idea.

maryeliza54 Wed 05-Dec-18 23:46:34

If a parent governor wanted the best for the children why would they not challenge the compulsory £25 per child Christmas surcharge?Well I’ve got an idea and I guess ( maybe I’m wrong) that gilly and me might be as on the same page with this.And do not be so silly Jal about the school my dgc go to - they don’t damn well force money from parents at all for Christmas presents for staff - it’s a loving caring school with a great community spirit and not a church school and the governors do a great job. As do the staff without a tax free £750 Christmas bonus.

Iam64 Thu 06-Dec-18 07:40:06

The debate about Faith schools is an important one. However, I'm not convinced its fair to suggest that Church schools are more likely to demand money in this way. I attended a Nativity in a Catholic school this week. Lovely place, in a very deprived area. No demanding money with menaces there just everything provided for the children so they all wore the same costume whatever role they played.

PECS Thu 06-Dec-18 08:11:14

silverlining I am horrified by what you write. I am sure it breaks all kinds of codes & I can hardly believe it!😯

The practice I have seen grow in recent times is that a PTA class rep is in the playgound a week or 2 before the end of term & has an envelope for parents to put in a voluntary donation. No check list no specified amount. Any money collected is shared, in the form of a gift token, between the adults working in the class. DD has had such a token and she could thank all families and all kids are equally included. Not saying it is right or wrong just pointing out a benefit for children!

PECS Thu 06-Dec-18 08:23:50

silverlining Governors may not be aware! If it is,a PTA arrangement then it would not necessarily come to govs. notice. The 3 parent reps on the GB I am on are fathers who do not drop their kids to school so may be less aware. However I certainly would have told my DH about the demand if he had been a gov!
Write to the Chair and express concerns.
Our school asks for a voluntary donation of £5 per term per family to help fund 'extras' ..from plants for the flowerbeds to special games for lunch time.

mumofmadboys Thu 06-Dec-18 08:26:07

The school you are talking about silverlining is surely a one off. I have never heard of that amount of money being asked for. I can understand children and parents wanting to thank a teacher and a card and small present is a great way to do it. Teachers deserve a thank you. Of course I support giving to foodbanks but feel that presents to any of us could equally well be replaced by donations to foodbanks. Why should teachers lose their gifts any more than grandparents or brothers?

NotSpaghetti Thu 06-Dec-18 10:33:42

4allweknow - I didn’t work for a local authority directly but for various charities including housing associations. Generally we had to log all gifts (even an iced bun) but could keep gifts which were perceived to be less than £5. Over that we were expected to refuse/return them. If it was deemed too awkward to do this they went to head office where they were used for charitable purposes.

Jalima1108 Thu 06-Dec-18 10:34:45

And do not be so silly Jal about the school my dgc go to - they don’t damn well force money from parents at all for Christmas presents for staff
I was meaning another posterm, not you, meliza who seemed to doubt that parent governors had the best interest of children at heart and actually represented parents' views on the board of governors.

I think we're both saying the same thing in a roundabout way.

I've never heard of this before and I think it's shocking; a real pressure on parents, especially those who are not well-off and/or may have more than one child in the school.

The parents need to make a stand against it - a united front!

OurKid1 Thu 06-Dec-18 11:32:18

It's an excellent idea and people can always ignore it if they want to.
As a former teacher, I often wondered how many of those well-meant gifts end up in charity shops after Christmas or donated to the school's Summer Fayre!

gillybob Thu 06-Dec-18 11:36:52

The practice I have seen grow in recent times is that a PTA class rep is in the playgound a week or 2 before the end of term & has an envelope for parents to put in a voluntary donation

Is it just me who thinks this is disgusting ? Many of the parents at my DGC’s school don’t have 2 pennies to rub together ! I know where I would tell them to shove their envelope if anyone handed me one in the playground !

gillybob Thu 06-Dec-18 11:38:08

Why should teachers lose their gifts any more than grandparents or brothers?

I really can’t believe I’m reading this ?

mcem Thu 06-Dec-18 11:43:23

I doubt if many teachers would feel deprived if gifts went to foodbanks! There shouldn't be isn't an expectation of presents and no mention in employment contracts!

moggie57 Thu 06-Dec-18 12:19:16

its a great idea. as many teachers gifts end up at the charity shops .i know because i volunteer in one.

mumofmadboys Thu 06-Dec-18 12:21:47

Sorry Gilly if you think that was a stupid comment. I mean that I am very happy to have an Oxfam goat or similar as a present. So many of us don't NEED anything. However if you really want to thank someone say for being a good teacher a little gift may feel more appropriate than a foodbank donation.

gillybob Thu 06-Dec-18 13:10:32

I don’t think it was a stupid comment at all mumofnadboys I just don’t happen to agree with presents for teachers . Big difference . I have said many times on GN that my DGC’s school is in a deprived area and the teachers are ( virtual) millionaires when compared with the vast amount of the children’s parents living on benefits. They shouldn’t feel guilt tripped into buying presents for teachers . A nice card with “thank you for being my teacher “ should be enough .

janeainsworth Thu 06-Dec-18 13:13:51

the teachers are ( virtual) millionaires when compared with the vast amount of the children’s parents living on benefit
Have you any idea what a teacher’s starting salary is, Gilly?

varian Thu 06-Dec-18 13:13:52

When did the "presents for teachers" thing start?.

It didn't happen round here when my children were at school in the 1970s and 1980s.

notanan2 Thu 06-Dec-18 13:21:30

the teachers are ( virtual) millionaires when compared with the vast amount of the children’s parents living on benefit

Most teachers earn less than minimum wage per hour when you account for all the unpaid overtime they are required to do. Plus all the supplies they supply out of their own pockets

gillybob Thu 06-Dec-18 13:27:35

I did say ( virtual ) janea and I’m sure you know this was not meant literally ! When Comparing a life on benefits to a teachers salary . But I’m sure you knew that was what I meant anyway. confused

Maybe I should volunteer to stand at the school gate on Monday morning and start a collection for the poor teachers Christmas.

eazybee Thu 06-Dec-18 13:28:55

I gave presents to my teachers at primary school, as did other children, and I started school in 1951; secondary school I cannot remember; I think we may have given a class present. I never felt pressurised to give presents; I always gave presents from my own children when they were at school because I was grateful for the help they received, and because they wanted to.
Many teachers, TAs and dinnerladies, give cards and gifts to the children they work with, paid for out of their own money; certainly all the people I worked with, in seven different schools and widely differing areas, did so.
No one is obliged to give a present, some families don't and no-one thinks the worse of them.
It is a matter of choice.
Oh yes,janeainsworth so true.

gillybob Thu 06-Dec-18 13:31:30

Oh hear we go .

Poor poor poor teachers . Do they pay the heating bills for the school too ? Provide the school meals out of their own pockets?

They probably use food banks too !

I could have guaranteed this thread would end up here .
Won’t be posting on this thread again that’s for sure.

annodomini Thu 06-Dec-18 13:43:13

70 years ago, when I was in primary school, we would never have dreamt of taking presents to teachers. If we took a bunch of flowers into class they would come from our own garden or wild flowers from the surrounding countryside. 30 years later, my kids and their classmates didn't take presents either.

janeainsworth Thu 06-Dec-18 13:43:54

I could have guaranteed this thread would end up here

Well gilly if by ‘here’ you mean a discussion about teachers’ low pay, it was you who steered the thread in that direction by comparing teachers’ salaries with benefit claimants’ incomes and saying that teachers were virtual millionaires.

mcem Thu 06-Dec-18 13:50:34

gilly although I understand what you're saying and why you're saying it, I 'd ask you please to stop presenting such an embittered view of teachers as wealthy and grasping.
I have followed with interest and sympathy the tribulations that you and your family have had to put up with recently but I can assure you that the picture you're now presenting is so far removed from my experience. On one hand we have the image of greedy people who would resent the suggested lack of presents, while on the other hand, others are playing on the overworked, underpaid staff who pay for virtually everything in their classroom.
Neither image is really correct but we could do with a bit less sterotyping.I
I think your suggestions on how to deal with this are excellent and wish you success.

gillybob Thu 06-Dec-18 14:05:06

Final word then I’m gone .

I have a great deal of respect for teachers . I don’t know why anywone would suggest otherwise . What I do not have is any respect for anyone who thinks it’s right and proper to expect money or gifts from those who have almost nothing to give but feel guilt tripped into doing so . What I would like to see is responsible schools sending letters out forbidding gifts, but reading some of these posts that will never happen. Maybe some of “your” DGC go to school in more affluent areas where mummy pays for teacher a spa weekend ? I don’t know and don’t even care .

I have already approached the school regarding the food bank idea. What any of this has to do with my own personal circumstances I have no bloomin’ idea ????

That really is the end of my taking part on this thread AND ANY OTHER where the T word is even hinted at !

PECS Thu 06-Dec-18 14:09:53

I am not one to defend teachers pay/holidays etc usually! I think that they work hard as very many other people do & not any more 'special' in that respect. However they are not that well paid any more than nurses, police, firefighters etc. are.
Yes they do get secure pension but that is taken from their is not a gift. So you make ends meet when working knowing you are paying for a more secure future via your pension contribution.

Life is miserably unfair Gilly in all kinds of ways. Some people earn mega bucks for minimum effort or contribution to society and others work mega hard for minimum reward. If you are going to have a 'dig' at the unfairness of income there are better targets than public workers! I do know how tough life can be on benefits and the impact of poverty.
Most teachers I have known and do know do not expect gifts.. especially not the grand gestures mentioned on this thread!
Just to say I was given gifts when I was teaching in Inner London in 70s/80s right through until I retired. Taught in pretty tough and deprived areas.

Gonegirl Thu 06-Dec-18 14:21:09

Teachers earn the odd present or two they might get at the end of term. Let the school put some effort themselves into raising money for local charities. Don't rob the staff of a bit of appreciation from the kids.

Gonegirl Thu 06-Dec-18 14:22:56

I'm talking about the odd box of chocolates btw. Not spa weekends! 😅

Gonegirl Thu 06-Dec-18 14:25:33

It doesn't matter whether the teacher is comfortable off, or hard up and struggling. They all work jolly hard and it's good for the children to express thanks.

Gonegirl Thu 06-Dec-18 14:30:33

annodomini I had forgotten how we used to take the odd bunch of flowers into school. Sweet memories. 😃

janeainsworth Thu 06-Dec-18 14:31:42

it’s good for the children to express thanks

Exactly gonegirl.

silverlining48 Thu 06-Dec-18 14:32:04

It gets worse, I have just found out that there is another charge of £20 per child on top of the teachers present money and this is for school fund. Surprises me as any short trips the children may go on cost, yes you have guessed , £20 or £25 per child. Even if it’s only a short trip somewhere local, and no, lunch is not included. So no subsiding with school fund, indeed plenty of profit. Dd paid £80 at the start of this term.
Trouble is, many parents at the school are pretty wealthy and are happy to go along with it, it’s just the few who struggle and who I feel for.
As much as i would like to, i can’t get involved. I just needed to vent. Thankyou. Oh and if I find this extortion is repeated for a summer present for teacher, which i think it is, I will try to keep quiet.

Jalima1108 Thu 06-Dec-18 15:40:32

Well, I don't think the way they go about it at your DGC's school is at all right silverlining, but,m as you say, you can't get involved. It's up to the parents to make a stand if they object to it.

The food bank idea is a worthy one and I do in fact think most teachers would like a card (home-made is lovely) to say thank you and perhaps a home-made gift or a drawing just as a token of appreciation for all their hard work as well.

Jalima1108 Thu 06-Dec-18 15:45:03

There's a world of difference between taking in something small like a card, some flowers or a small box of chocolates which can be shared in the staff room with all members of staff to expecting parents to find £25 per child!

silverlining48 Thu 06-Dec-18 16:43:24

Indeed Jalima. It does seem incredible that the school feel these demands acceptable and justified, but clearly it is an unreasonable expectation. Shame on them.

eazybee Thu 06-Dec-18 17:46:36

At my gcs state primary there is a ‘ voluntary’ ( but oh so obligatory ) payment of £25 per child for teachers’ Christmas gifts. That’s £50 for her two small children. When they tried to ‘ get away’ with £15 they were chased up to pay the balance.
You should name this school because a state school would not be be allowed to do this.
Is this money demanded by the school or by a parents'organisation?
You simply refuse to pay it; it has nothing to do with education.

eazybee Thu 06-Dec-18 17:52:42

What I do not have is any respect for anyone who thinks it’s right and proper to expect money or gifts from those who have almost nothing to give but feel guilt tripped into doing so
Who expects money or gifts?
Facts please.
Who guilt trips you in to doing this?
Facts please.

GabriellaG Thu 06-Dec-18 18:04:45

Twice what you need to earn when openinga bank account. Teachers also work shorter hours and enjoy longer holidays than those in most other sectors. If they are any good they can progress and supply teachers remuneration is about £100-220pd depending on area and skills but can be a lot more depending on the school.
My father was headmaster of a large mixed school and, when he died suddenly in 1962, his salary was £1k pa...yes. As a family of 5 we had everything we needed and 80% of what we wanted. Nothing second hand. We lived in a semi-det, 3 bed, two reception house with walled gardens front and back in a tree-lined suburban road.
If people cannot live on £22k then they're lousy at budgeting.

mumofmadboys Thu 06-Dec-18 18:09:28

22K may be ok for a single person living in London but not if you have dependents

mumofmadboys Thu 06-Dec-18 18:11:39

Teachers work really hard. They deserve a reasonable wage.Especially nowadays. They have enormous pressures to reach targets etc.

janeainsworth Thu 06-Dec-18 18:21:30

You’ve lost me, Gabriella.
I don’t see what headmasters’ salaries in 1962 have got to do with classroom teachers’ salaries in 2018.

PECS Thu 06-Dec-18 18:42:51

Gabriella I currently get paid £120 a day for supply teaching before tax etc. In Surrey. That works out at about £17 per hour. I pay the jobbing gardener who has been helping me recently a higher hourly rate.

I have 40 very successful years behind me and a pay not necessarily related to experience or qualification!. It's not great for a professional salary but a lot better than the 'unskilled' minimum wage hourly rate my friend is paid as a carer.
I choose to supply to keep my classroom skills up to speed to give my more lucrative consultancy work credibility.
Teachers do get to work fewer hours when schools are closed that is true but they work similar hours to any other professional during term time :7: 30 -6:00 plus work at home is the daily norm for my DD2. My DD1 is self employed and works fewer hours a day but earns more and has greater flexibility re time.

I have friends in the legal and medical professions who also had far more flexibility than I ever did in their working lives. Swings and roundabouts!

Jalima1108 Thu 06-Dec-18 19:17:23

PECS the other thing is that if you do not have a full-time contract then you do not get paid for holidays or sick leave.
Although my DD prefers the flexibility this allows her, it worries me!

oldbatty Thu 06-Dec-18 19:25:23

Sorry, I am confused , are these schools which more or less demand present money state schools?

Also , the whole idea of giving and gift giving and Christmas has gone mad in my opinion.

Jalima1108 Thu 06-Dec-18 19:26:17

I think the one in question is a C of E state school oldbaty

If the DGD's school suggested this, I think they would get short shrift from the very sensible parents.

Jalima1108 Thu 06-Dec-18 19:26:30

sorry - oldbatty

oldbatty Thu 06-Dec-18 19:33:24

How absolutely crazy.

PECS Thu 06-Dec-18 20:00:48

Jalima that is correct. It states clearly on the pay slip that £120 includes % ge for holiday pay. That is OK for me as a semi retired person but not for a person starting out!

Gabriella I think you may have forgotten that in 1962 the average house price for a semi was about £2,500 so two and half your father's salary. Two and a half of £25k ( new teacher) which is £1800 pm before tax, NI & pension and loan repayment etc(or even for a HT earning the nat. average of £50k,) will buy you what? Certainly not much as the average semi price is now about £225,600. In the SE it is much higher as you will know.

The 2 bed terrace in my cul de sac, pocket handkerchief for a garden is on the market for £350k or to rent

If you can save the 10% for a deposit and still pay a rent (£1350 pm for a 2 bed place locally!), pay bills, eat, have clothes and pay transport costs to get to earn the money in the first place out of your £1800 a month well done you!

It is like comparing apples and potatoes... not the same at all.

varian Thu 06-Dec-18 20:06:36

Pecs with her Masters degree and forty years of teaching experience, is paid £120 per day as a supply teacher. Teachers work 195 days per year so this equates to a full-time salary of £23,400 pa.

The government classifies (for immigration purposes) anyone who earns less than £30,000 pa as "low skilled", therefore not entitled to enter this country! Good thing Pecs is already here!

PECS Thu 06-Dec-18 20:22:44

Gosh Varian had not thought of it like that!

notanan2 Fri 07-Dec-18 07:44:35

Teachers also work shorter hours and enjoy longer holidays than those in most other sectors.
No they don't.
Teachers' working days don't start and end when their lessons do.
Most teachers either work 6 or 7 days a week or they elongate their weekdays to get their work done. Its not like in your fathers day, there is a lot more paperwork to do behind the scenes now.
They get no flexibility re when to take their leave unlike other sectors and unlike other sectors teachers are often expected to work from home during their leave.
There is compulsory overtime for meetings etc for contracted teachers

If people cannot live on £22k then they're lousy at budgeting.
Teachers who are parents have to pay for wrap-around care for their children 5 days a week.
£22,000 is around £1500 take home a month (most new teachers have student loans these days). A terrace in a not great area round here (not london) with no parking is about £1200/month to rent.
The ends don't meet unless there's another income coming in. Think it's your budgeting arithmetic skills that need work if you think that's a comfortable living wage these days.

At that salary you are just over the threshold for tax credits so you are not actually much better off than people on lower salaries who qualify for extra.

Sarahmob Fri 07-Dec-18 08:20:51

Gabriella I think you should talk to a teacher about shorter hours/longer holidays in order to see the true picture of education in 2018. When I was teaching full time I worked a 14 hour day most days, marking and preparing late into the evening. I also worked weekends and went into school a number of days in every holiday. It was exhausting. Also out of my salary I would purchase books and teaching materials not provided by the school, baking ingredients, compost for ‘growing things’ topics and the list goes on. Not to mention food for children who had no breakfast ... Please try not to comment so negatively when your knowledge isn’t up to date.

Iam64 Fri 07-Dec-18 08:32:12

Gabriella, I wonder how you'll respond to the messages above from PECS, varian, notanan and Sarahmob? Their comments put accurately the hours and earnings of teachers.

dragonfly46 Fri 07-Dec-18 08:55:11

Jane you were very lucky to have such a lovely house etc. My dad went into teaching in London after being in the army in the war. I was a baby and we had trouble getting rented accommodation. Some weeks they could not afford even a stamp for a letter and my mum was the best money manager I knew. When they moved to Yorkshire they had to borrow the deposit to buy a tiny bungalow for £650. Things did get better when he was made deputy head but they were always careful.
I went into teaching in 1967 for a pittance and worked every evening marking etc. I used to appreciate the hand made thank you cards I was given and wanted nothing more. None of the teachers I know expect or want presents.

Gabriella Teachers work even harder now having long days and often working in the evening s and over their break times. They also plan lessons in their long holidays. They are also working with limited resources since the government cuts.
Their salaries do not reflect this especially in expensive areas.

MissAdventure Fri 07-Dec-18 08:59:41

I think that's the same for most jobs these days.

notanan2 Fri 07-Dec-18 09:04:23

For what its worth I am on a comparable salary to teachers but:

My over time is both PAID and optional.

My time off is my time, I am not expected to continue my work from home once my working day ends. Or on my days off. Or during my annual leave.

I can request to take my annual leave at any time. I won't necessarily always be granted it at the times I want it, but often I am.

I think my sector has it a lot easier than teaching.

And I'm very good at budgeting thank you very much. But we don't get by on my income alone. It's an okay income if it's per person in a 2 income home. Not for a single parent though.

notanan2 Fri 07-Dec-18 09:13:32

I really don't know where this recurring begrudgingly of teachers salaries comes from? It doesn't seem to happen to other graduate professions??

MawBroon Fri 07-Dec-18 09:14:22

As a family of 5 we had everything we needed and 80% of what we wanted. Nothing second hand. We lived in a semi-det, 3 bed, two reception house with walled gardens front and back in a tree-lined suburban road

Was this the council house in run down Liverpool I believe you described once before? .

notanan2 Fri 07-Dec-18 09:15:40


janeainsworth Fri 07-Dec-18 09:16:00

Jane you were very lucky to have such a lovely house etc

What are you talking about?
I do hope you’re not mixing me up with gabriella.

dragonfly46 Fri 07-Dec-18 09:35:26

Jane I sincerely apologise I was mixing you up with Gabriella maybe because you were tagged in her post. Please forgive me - not my best at the moment.

janeainsworth Fri 07-Dec-18 09:41:42

No worries dragonfly flowers

janeainsworth Fri 07-Dec-18 09:42:30

I just wanted to set the record straight wink

MawBroon Fri 07-Dec-18 12:30:32

GabriellaG you said a while back

Born and raised in a council house in North Liverpool near Formby

My recollection of council housing was that they were not quite the leafy suburban houses with walled gardens that headmasters of my acquaintance lived in
Rents as I recollect were also subsidised, so how might that impact “budgeting” of a headmaster’s salary?

Chucky Fri 07-Dec-18 12:54:51

I brought up this topic on mumsnet and of course the response was poor teachers, who can grudge them gifts and never mind if parents can’t afford. Gilly was completely right, but of course the poor teachers are on the breadline, not even getting minimum wage. Try living on genuine minimum wage and resisting the pleas from dear children to be able to take presents for teachers. The food bank idea is great and I certainly think even those who are less well off will be happy to donate, even if it means donating something they received in their last food bank parcel.

paddyann Fri 07-Dec-18 13:00:08

notanan2its the long holidays ..and before you say Teachers work through their holidays can I say that my best friend from school days until she died in her late forties was a teacher.She didn't lift a pen during her breaks ...ever,She went away for long holidays in the sun and ski breaks ,she openly told folk that the teacher who said she worked all through holidays was telling stories.
I do understand that teaching is different nowadays but I dont for a minute believe they spend all their holidays working ,certainly the young teachers my Great niece included don't.When you work out their wage over a normal week and number of weeks its a decent wage ..and no I didn't do it my GN did and she's more than happy with what she gets .

paddyann Fri 07-Dec-18 13:00:55

young teachers I know

MawBroon Fri 07-Dec-18 13:03:17

This was meant to be juxtaposed with the previous quote

As a family of 5 we had everything we needed and 80% of what we wanted. Nothing second hand. We lived in a semi-det, 3 bed, two reception house with walled gardens front and back in a tree-lined suburban road

Of course the poster’s reminiscences may not be mutually contradictory, but in my experience in my small Scottish burgh in the 50’s and 60’s, headmasters certainly did not live in council houses.
Subsidised council housing was intended and indeed reserved for those on the lowest or no incomes, those in genuine need.

Mapleleaf Fri 07-Dec-18 18:06:38

Oh dear GG, that old chestnut about working shorter hours and longer holidays. Come in at 9, leave at 3, 13 weeks holiday. Yeah, yeah, right....
Have you been a teacher? Do you speak from your own experience?
When do you think the planning and preparation for the lessons gets done?
When do you think all the classroom displays get done?
When do you think all the marking gets done?
When do you think all the reports get done?
When do you think all the assessments get done, then get put onto the system?
When do you think all the preparation for open evenings (held 3 times a year, after school for several hours), gets done?
When do you think all the booster classes get done and the preparation for them?
I could go on.
I don’t agree about Parents being expected to donate huge amounts of money for Christmas presents for teachers, and indeed I have never heard of it. It would not be condoned by the LA or equivalent, it’s against the rules, so if there is a school doing this, it needs reporting.

PECS Fri 07-Dec-18 18:39:41

NotananI do not think anyone was saying that compared to minimum wage teachers got a bad deal..though it is not a fantastic one and there is a national shortage of teachers..think it is 1 in 3 leave after 3 years. Something is wrong if that is really happening.
When I began teaching in '72 it was a far less pressurised job than today. Though DH & I worked 2nd jobs to supplement income in early 70s.

PECS Fri 07-Dec-18 18:40:30

Sorry think I meant to reply to paddy

dragonfly46 Fri 07-Dec-18 18:45:06

Well said Mapleleaf I have been a teacher and what you say is true and the pressure has got worse in the last few years with the constant testing etc.

MawBroon Fri 07-Dec-18 18:55:32

I too started in 1970 taking an extended break from 1973 to have babies and bring up our children
I returned in 1986 and it was a whole new ball game - no more teaching from the book, new technology to get my head round, individual lesson plans for a range of abilities, endless assessments, detailed reports, after school and holiday exam revision sessions etc etc etc
Then the pressures of league tables, GCSE and A level results and of course OFSTED

Yes the number of weeks one is contracted to be in the classroom may be less than weeks in an office but there is no flexibility- any appointments, medical or legal, house moving, weddings, honeymoons etc had to be in holiday time.
Preaching to the converted I know, but it made me very angry to have to deflect the constant flak (everyone’s an expert) in the press, from often hostile or defensive parents, from people who would not last 10 minutes in front of 30 recalcitrant teenagers - mostly taller than me, often belligerent but also warm and friendly once the relationship was established.
Not a job for the faint hearted.

PECS Fri 07-Dec-18 20:21:04

I do not think teachers need to be made out to be a special case in terms of hours etc as many people have to work similar long and demanding hours but the public scrutiny is possibly greater.. both at national level and from at least 30 sets of parents on a daily basis!

dragonfly46 Fri 07-Dec-18 20:24:21

The problem I found as a teacher was that it was a profession everybody knew about as they had been through the system. They all had an opinion and felt they could all do better.

MawBroon Fri 07-Dec-18 20:31:09

Oh yes! wink

Jalima1108 Fri 07-Dec-18 23:01:55

My time off is my time, I am not expected to continue my work from home once my working day ends. Or on my days off. Or during my annual leave.
Unfortunately a lot of firms these days are far more demanding of their employees; DS seems to have to be aware of phone calls, emails etc outside his scheduled working hours.

pensionpat Sat 08-Dec-18 08:14:06

My DDiL has been a teacher for over 20 years and I see at close quarters how much extra, unpaid work is done. In addition, during lessons she gets many emails from other teachers or the Senior Leadership Team. She is expected to reply to them ASAP. This must be stressful and must have an impact on the lesson. Very poor practice.

eazybee Sat 08-Dec-18 08:31:33

I haven't read all the posts on here, so apologies if this point has been made.
Many children at the primary stage actually want to give a present to their teacher, (ignoring the child I heard arguing with his mother about giving me a gift, because 'she is 'orrible; she made me miss playtime'). They have a close relationship with their class teacher whom they see every day of the school year, and who has, for that year at least, the most influence on them outside their family.
It has less to do, I think, with the hours teachers work; most people do over and above their hours in their jobs nowadays, but few are in such close regular contact with individuals.
And if you don't want to give a gift, Don't Give One.
Stop trying , under the veil of charity, to prevent those who wish to, from doing so.

Maggiemaybe Sat 08-Dec-18 08:42:58

You’re so right, Jalima, the workplace has changed and become more stressful for just about everyone.

PECS Sat 08-Dec-18 09:51:25

I think email and smartphones make us and work accessible 24/7. That can make it difficult for some to feel switched off from work..whatever their job. A good employer should not expect staff to access work communications during evenings and weekends... but pigs might fly too..

Iam64 Sat 08-Dec-18 10:06:40

A close relationship is good but shouldn’t equate to gift giving

Jalima1108 Sat 08-Dec-18 13:01:08

ignoring the child I heard arguing with his mother about giving me a gift, because 'she is 'orrible; she made me miss playtime'
That made me laugh eazybee grin

Gaggi3 Sun 09-Dec-18 21:07:10

I think it's a good idea to skip the presents and give to food banks, but I'm still very unhappy with the fact that food banks are so necessary to sustain families in what is supposed to be a first world country. What is happening to us?