Gove again!

Signed it too, Iam64, more in hope than expectation. An excellent link, Mamie, thank you.

Not to mention covering the 10 hour school day, which G was suggesting last week.

I think Gove is doing his best. It's not all bad. Far from it.

New guidelines about discipline are sorely needed. The teachers need to know they can give out detentions and such without the parents screeching at them down the telephone. Excellent that they can bring backj litter picking. And lines. Must make sure DD realises that.

I don't like the idea of a compulsory 10 hour day, but more after schools clubs would be good. So long as they bring in outside staff to do it. Many children do go straight home after school without any life enhancing activities to look forward to.

I had really begun to wonder what planet this man was on but I a now getting pictures in my head of him with a small, toothbrush moustache.

am not "a" -sorry

Aka, you beat me to it. I was shouting the very thing at the telly last night (I don't often shout at the telly, but this man really gets to me)- COUNT THE NUMBER OF STUDENTS GOVE. I taught classes at secondary school of up to 33- private schools have classes of about 15. I think that would be pretty visible and quickly. When I say this to teachers here- they just do NOT believe me and always say 'how on earth can you teach a class with more than 20!!! Impossible' - how I laugh (cry).

Of course among the large class-size in State school, there will be several with special-needs, a few who do not speak any English, some who have never come across reading materials at home, or reading in any form for that matter, some who come from very difficult backgrounds and no discipline and other behaviour problems, etc, etc.).

Thanks for the link, Mamie. And granjura makes a very relevant point. What do people think about the latest Gove wizard wheeze, of making all 13 year olds take Common Entrance?

Isn't that bringing back the 11+ by the backdoor Lilygran?

There is a great article by Peter Wilby today:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/03/state-schools-independents-michael-gove
I love the ideas that you would need half of rural England to match the playing fields of independent schools.
I don't think Gove has ideas. They are just brain farts.

The minute that normal schools look like fee-paying schools will be the time when the fee paying schools will up their game. That is what they don't want.
I saw Michael Gove on the Andrew Marr show and can't believe that anybody can take him seriously. The conservatives have this belief that you can improve anything - schools, hospitals and lately flood prevention by dismissing staff and cutting funding. When has that been seen to work?
I didn't think that any body could do more damage to the school sytem than David Blunkett with his league tables ( he has since admitted it was a mistake) but perhaps Gove will.

The simplest way to improve standards in schools is to cut class sizes to a maximum of 15. That means building more schools, or adding additional classrooms to existing ones and employing twice as many teachers.

It won't happen.

Actually Aka, I don't think the evidence about class size is that clear. I think there are times when it is OK to teach something to a big class, times when you need small groups and times when you need one to one. Most schools do some or all of this. My eldest GDG had a few problems with some maths concepts and did very well on a computer "catch-up" programme that she used for ten minutes before school every day.
Anecdotally, I have met a few teachers in independent schools (including well-known schools) who have been going in to teach in secondary schools with very challenging intake, under various "pairing" schemes. They have said how difficult they have found it and commented on how much they have learnt from the teachers in the state schools.

The myth that 'class size doesn't matter' was put about by Keneth Baker (him do B'day fame). Believe me it makes a huge difference, especially in primary school. I speak from experience. With a class of 15 I could spend twice as much time with children as with a class of 30, the norm in KS1 & 2.

Yes, computers are valuable aids, but the more time that teachers have for listening to and assessing the understanding of individual children would perhaps have nipped problems with mental maths (as a good example.) in the bud.

I was shouting at the radio yesterday when Gove was on, it is not just what he says, but his irritating voice. However, I get really angry when people have this idea that ALL private schools are better than ALL state schools. my children were both state school educated and although we were fortunate for them to both go to selective schools at 11, the comprehensive school which would have been the other option is excellent. Where does he get this idea that only private schools have after school activity? All the schools here, selective or otherwise have after school sports, drama clubs, put on productions, run fetes, pantos, etc, and have after school homework clubs. As to class sizes, my daughter has left her selective all girls school and gone to the local sixth form college to study the IB (International Baccalaureate) and has classes of 6-8 pupils,and she is taught by qualified teachers ( not a given in the independent sector) and they are OFSTED checked, again not a a given in the independent sector. Sorry to rant, and everyone is entitled to their views on state versus independent, but when the Secretary of State for Education condemns a whole sector without fairness or knowledge it makes me very angry and very frightened.

I speak from thirty-five years of experience too Aka. My experience tells me that flexible learning works. There is a lot of evidence out there that goes a lot deeper than Kenneth Baker!

Why not turn every state school in the country into a boarding school then the
Gove (rnment) would have total control ( including over what they ate)? No more arguments over lunchboxes either (oh, that's another forum, sorry)

And his wife would be able to euthanise all baby boomers and take over our houses. (Sorry, another gripe).

Nobody sends their children to private schools to be taught in classes of 30+, Mamie. I speak from experience of going to a private school and teaching in state schools.
My grandmother taught a class of 70+ aged from 5 to 14 with one teaching assistant, so I know it can be done, but I would not advocate that, either.
Anyway, Gove does not need anyone to stick up for him, and he would not take any notice of you either.

Dare I say that in the days when our grandparents taught large classes there were not the same discipline problems. no mobile phones for a start, and parents respected teachers, supporting them rather than complaining that their darling child was being 'picked on' etc.

Did you think I was sticking up for Gove? Golly, that is a bit of a misinterpretation of my earlier posts. Did the comment about brain farts really sound like a compliment?
I went to independent school too, classes of fifteen and some really dire teaching. I then spent my whole career (teacher, adviser, inspector) in the state sector. The point I was making was that you cannot make a blanket statement that small classes mean better teaching. It depends what you are teaching, what pedagogy is appropriate, who the learners are, what their preferred learning styles are. I was not for one minute suggesting classes of 30+ for everything. Whole class, small group learning, individual and personalised learning; all have their place. Good schools do all of these.

Agreed Mamie, what is this obsession with class sizes? there are many variables in the children, the teachers, the subject being taught. At my children's (state) primary there was rarely whole class teaching with one teacher; there are well qualified LSA staff, and in the earlier years at least, always parents and grandparents in to help with reading. Add on the fact that it was a SCITT school ( approved for teacher training) and the ratio in classes is often 3 adults to 30 children. Some subjects such as spelling, reading and maths are taught in target groups i.e small groups of 3-7 children. I am sure this is not unusual.

I do think Gove is a pillock but it would be hard to think of a Sec of State for ED who really knew what they were doing!

Political parties should only be able to decide on the following re education:

Level of spending per pupil
Qualification expected of staff
Expected levels of attainment and qualifications at age 13 & 18

That would give me enough to decide how to cast my vote.

That's right, Penstemmon. This interfering at classroom level is the root of the problem. They interfere in the NHS as well but they don't (so far) tell the clinicians how to handle cases.

Yes lilygran it struck me many moons ago that the secretary of state for education so often feels it is appropriate to intervene at what would be the clinical level if it was applied to the NHS. That was back in Dobson's day, when he introduced a new grading system for nurses in response to a DM campaign if I remember correctly. Disruptive - but at least he was not telling the nurses how to do their job.