Does our education system meet the needs the workplace

juggernaut Nobody could possibly blame you for sending your son to a grammar school in the area you live where the choice was between a grammar school and a secondary modern. The best thing in an area like yours would be comprehensive reorganisation as happened in most areas many years ago, not increasing the number of grammar school places. Areas of England which are ful;ly comprehensive get overall results which are just as good and the children do not suffer the divisive effects of the 11+

But, Day6 I don't agree with streaming by ability at age 14, it is too young, we know more about brain science now, and that IQ and ability is not fixed at such a young age.

railman I absolutely agree that engineering apprentices are also able to do problem solving, but not everyone can be an engineer. Some young people are academic, and they need to be catered for as well as more practical people.
An academic education should teach people to think, if it is run properly.

Day6 It's very likely that your son will earn more over his lifetime than his friends who started to earn sooner.

Quote gillybob [I would be interested to learn what a “real” apprentiship would entailGrandad1943and what this “new legislation” would be that we employers would try to resist?] End quote.

Gillybob, perhaps in answering your question it may be helpful to you and other forum members to briefly give my working background. As I have stated on leaving school in 1960 at the age of fifteen with no qualifications I went through a number of occupations. At the age of nineteen, I joined the road haulage industry as a driver (HGV at the age of twenty one) and loved that occupation for many years

In the early 1980s, I was elected as the employee distribution centre safety rep and sent on a what turned out to be a full-time one month long industrial safety course. That course and education completely changed my life. Following that, I became a safety officer for management eventually holding responsibility for safety in eight distribution centres across the country.

During that period with the assistance of that wonderful employer I achieved through Lifetime learning higher IOSH (Institute of Occupational Safety and Health) Accreditation and at the same time improved my English, maths etc. In 2003 the section of that business I was employed in was sold to a multi-national company and my services to them was soon "no longer required".

I then set up my own industrial safety business and received work from my original employer, got lucky in getting other client work and soon became an employer myself. My wife and I ran that company until 2013 when we sold it to four senior long standing employees who had been with us since the start up of the business to retire.

We bought back a 25% share in business again when one of those four had a road traffic accident, which means he will never work again, and in that I am still there.

Therefore Gillybob, all I wish to see for those who are starting out in higher education or are looking to improve their employment position would be for the help, training, lifelong learning and assistance I received throughout a large part of my working life to be available once again to them.

I realize that high level training of employees does not come at low cost as we have on several occasions trained out existing staff to the standards required in the profession these days. However, many positions require science and engineering qualifications on commencement of employment with us and we as a company train them on from there.

Therefore, I feel those opportunities of good quality training could and should become available once again through incentives to employers, change of legislation, a rethink on university degree funding and the comprehensive reintroduction of lifelong learning.

For a student to spend three years gaining a second-class degree from a third rate university is the most insane waste of time, they'd be so much better off growing up and learning how to earn a living by going into work-based training

I am in full agreement twiglet77
Many teenagers are going with the flow, because they have so few options.
Work based training, although not a way to get rich quick, is likely to serve a young person much better than going to University, just because.

My son commented that at 22 many of his school friends who went to work at 16 had skills, experience, a track record of employment and money in their pockets. He had a piece of paper, rode a bicycle everywhere and thousands of pounds worth of debt.

Which is the best course of action? He is doing OK now, but started off earning much less at 22 than his friends who had been in work based training since the age of 16. He had debt, they had skills, cars and aspired to a mortgage.

* varian*
I'm well aware that many students from Comprehensive schools go on to achieve first class academic results and professional careers, in fact I didn't mention Comprehensive education at all!
Where we live, we have a choice of Grammar or Secondary Modern, we are a non Comprehensive area.
Our local Secondary Modern actually states in their syllabus that they aim to get their students to attain C grades at GCSE, and D grades if they stay to do A levels, which very few do.
Using my DS as a case in point, D grades at A level would not have been sufficient for him to get a place on any Law 101 degree in this country. Therefore his chance was only ever going to be through the Grammar school. We could have sent him to a Private school I suppose, but financially that was an impossibility.
Our Grammar school needs extra places, as it is massively oversubscribed, and therefore having to turn down children who really deserve a place. Some of these children would, no doubt, be fine at a good Comprehensive school, but we don't have one, so they are forced to either go to the Sec Mod, or travel out of the Borough entirely to the closest Comprehensives, which also operate an admissions policy, based on home/school proximity as so many children from our area wish to go there.
Our Education Authority here is an absolute disgrace and I wouldn't wish it on anyone!
If Comprehensive schools are run properly, with streaming that works, teachers who are committed, and enough funds, I agree that they offer a wonderful education, but far too many of them fail their more academic pupils, and those who are struggling.
It's horses for courses surely?

For a student to spend three years gaining a second-class degree from a third rate university is the most insane waste of time, they'd be so much better off growing up and learning how to earn a living by going into work-based training. Apprenticeships are, sadly, often used purely as an excuse for the employer to pay a pocket-money wage and though they may be worthwhile for someone learning what could be a very lucrative trade (eg plumbing) I fail to see how nurseries can justify paying around half minimum wage to teach an apprenticeship in childcare!

Day6 - I agree with many of your points.

Not so sure about the 'bums on seats' brining in more revenue - though it clearly helps to avoid the 'NEETS' statistics provided by the ONS looking worse.

My grandson's experience in some aspects of his 16 to 18 teaching left a lot to be desired, although he, thankfully has been successful in spite of, rather than as a result of post-16 education curriculum.

ILovecheese - I liked your suggestion that:

One advantage of a university education is that it teaches the students to think, and problem solve.

Having had the opportunity to work with and train graduates, and some undergraduates, I'm not sure I believe that the university experience teaches student to think. Problem solving skills are much more likely to be gained in a traditional apprenticeship background.

It may be what the university and the rest of us public tend to think happens, but many thousands of traditional engineering apprentices are equally able to "do problem solving", and have real world experience of its application.

Our society needs a broad education system - covering both academic and practical applications of topics being studied.

Not read all the posts yet but just wanted to say something to hildajenni.
I know a lady who has sons who have special needs ,all of them really struggled with school , more so they could not deal with the social side of it at all .So she home schooled them and then she supported them through college and then through university and now all of them hold really good jobs and one is married and a father. So don't despair

In answer to the question above, no, I don't think it does. But I don't think our education system is guiding young peaople well either, especially in terms of career advice and 'staying on at school." Bums on seats mean more money for schools so the least academic are flattered to be asked to stay on.

Post 16 education is woefully lacking. Not all kids are academic but they are forced through hoops to study for examinations they are likely to fail.It would be a much better use of their time to sort kids according to ability at 14. I know people scream that would be segregation, (a la secondary modern schools of old) but do we want the best for all children or a system that fails many but satisfies the politically correct who favour 'mainstream' a system with more holes in it than a colander? Sadly there is not much diversity with 'mainstream' one size fits all - but who cares as long as it's right-on and all are equal, even when they patently are NOT?

If I had power I'd ensure there were many more well funded, well organised, prestigious vocational courses open to students from an early age. Kids need practical skills too. We also need a well funded and rigorous apprenticeship programme for 16 year olds. Most go on to pointless further education in school because there are so few options for them at 16, especially if they have very few decent GCSEs. Keeping them off the streets and in post 16 education and ensuring numbers are up in schools (because headcounts matter and are lucrative) seems to be the name of the game.

So many students feel that University is a right too, and just like schools, Unis offer foundation courses galore to allow entry for the less academic or those who've failed in school. Bums on seats again. Money is at the root of it all. So many cannot use their degrees after graduation. The country is swamped with inexperienced and (unfortunately) not too bright graduates. A degree doesn't have the same status any longer or open doors or guarantee a well paid career because they are now common place. Employers are aware of this.

Well funded apprenticeships or vocational courses (in depth ones with status at completion) are the way forward imo.

The Government's £50 million for "extra grammar school places" is just a cover to open new school premises - thus reviving their manifesto commitment. Any extension to existing schools can be made up to 10 miles away, which in turn will cause an increase in house prices, and develop ever more divisions in society.

The less said about 'free schools' and 'religious schools' the better.

That was in response to *Juggernaut"

Exactly - the last thing we need is more grammar school places to cream off the local comprehensives.

I am glad your son did so well at grammar school but I think you will find that many ex-comprehensive school pupils also achieve first class academic results and professional careers.

@Joelsnan I have a friend who has nursed all her life, and she said that the HCA’s on her ward can now do so many extra training days/courses, there are loads of things they do now that were once the preserve of the qualified staff. Of course, they are cheaper to employ. She says that if she were considering entering the profession now, she doubts she would bother to train with all the debt etc she would accrue. One thing that annoyed and concerned us both, is the trend for the HCA to carry out the task, and the qualified nurse has to sign it off and be responsible. I was sorry to hear you are unwell, and hope all goes well for you.

varian
The vast majority of Grammar School students are destined for Acadaemia, so how this cash will 'help to increase the number of apprenticeships and train the skilled workforce Britain needs' is not really a question for consideration.
Putting it bluntly, most apprenticeships are not taken by Grammar School students.
My DS went to a Grammar School, then spent six years qualifying as a Solicitor, involving a Law Degree (three years), a Legal Practice Certificate (one year), and a Training Contract (two years). Then he started at the bottom of the ladder, and only now, at the age of thirty one, is he reaping the benefits of all his hard work and study.
I agree that more money should be put into apprenticeships for those young people for whom that would be beneficial, but apprenticeships have their place alongside the more academic subjects.

JoelsNan - agree completely with you - I have long argued that we need a return to learning based nursing rather than University led nursing. Not everyone who would love a career as a nurse is academically minded, and we read all the time about patients being neglected and mistreated whilst in hospital - having the SEN role back will go a long way to removing this. We should value our nurses and make sure they get paid a decent salary.

couldn't agree more

We also need to remember that jobs are going to change over time as artificial intelligence is used more and more. I don't think training should be solely focused on one particular industry, as that industry could well not exist in a decade or two. Young people should be taught to be flexible, so that their skills can be transferred.

One advantage of a university education is that it teaches the students to think, and problem solve. These are the skills that are going to be needed in the future.

Just think of some of the jobs that have disappeared: skilled printers, television repair, electrical goods repair. How much longer are we going to have shop assistants? With self service tills becoming more and more prevalent.

Maybe not all children are academic, but they all have talents which can be put to more than one use.

As more and more jobs can be done by robots and drones, maybe the best education we can give our young people is how to use their spare time productively.

I know that we still need builders and plumbers, but we are going to need less, think how many fewer builders are needed to build a house now that machines are doing the heavy lifting and so many components arrive on site already put together.

We have to be training our young people to cope in the future.

Trouble is we haven’t valued technical education and successive governments haven’t invested in it. It’s cheaper to teach a class of kids business studies than it it to teach engineering or craft subjects. Schools are now cutting these very subjects as they aren’t being funded. Instead this government is putting money into free schools and grammar schools. Maybe when the supply of builders and plumbers from places like Poland dries up the government might wake up and invest in British youngsters.

Under controversial new proposals, £50 million is to be pumped into creating more places at selective state schools in a move that ministers said will give parents more choice. But school leaders criticised the decision, saying they were "disappointed" that the Government was spending "scarce funding" on expanding grammars.

Grammars that want to take on more pupils will have to submit plans setting out what action they will take to boost the numbers of disadvantaged pupils they admit - similar to the access agreements signed by universities that want to charge £9,250 tuition fees.

Schools - which select pupils based on academic ability - will also have to show proof of a need for extra places in their area. There are 163 grammar schools in England and, if all were given an equal share of the £50 million pot (which will be available in the 2018/19 academic year), they would receive just over £300,000 each.

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/grammar-schools-given-50m-to-expand-under-controversial-new-government-plans-a3836171.html

How will this help to increase the number of apprenticeships and train the skilled workforce Britain needs?

Real apprenticeships, could be once again brought about under new legislation. Many companies would undoubtedly try to resist such legislation

I would be interested to learn what a “real” apprentiship would entail Grandad1943 and what this “new legislation” would be that we employers would try to resist?

Quote Joelsnan [ AgreeGrandad1943. Trouble is how do you get potiticians and academia to acknowledge this need and adapt. It's like trying to change the course of an iceberg.] End Quote

That Joelsnan is the very big question. However, I very strongly feel that the course of the "education iceberg" has to be brought about if this country is to have any real economic future.

I believe that the abolition of tuition fees for degree subjects that are seen as "beneficial to the overall UK economy" would be affordable to the treasury.

Real apprenticeships, could be once again brought about under new legislation. Many companies would undoubtedly try to resist such legislation, but if those organisations require high skills to maintain their business into the future, then they must I believe pay that cost of training and not rely on overseas recruitment.

Restoring Lifelong learning is a very big must I feel. The trade unions at present do carry out that role free of cost to existing members and in that run some great educational courses. Employers could be encouraged to assist employees in that learning by way of tax relief provided that proof is forthcoming that employees are given access to "quality education and training".

Let's have an end to training and education meaning that some apprenticeships are no more than someone learning to pour and serve a cup of coffee.

If there has to be a small rise in taxation to pay for all the above, then for me and I am sure many others that would be a small price to pay for the increased security of the long term UK economy.

Perhaps that would be the true cost of Brexit also

We seem to have lost the true ideal that the best countries are the well educated ones. Education like many other social initiatives has to be income generating and as such loses its core intent.
Lifelong learning and Adult learning certainly guided me through my working life and career changes.

One of the unforeseen consequences of the current 'university for everyone' approach is surely the kerfuffle over student loans. When only 5% of the population went to university, tuition and even grants were affordable from the exchequer. When 50% of school leavers attend uni. then clearly affordability becomes an issue.

Let's have an expansion in the provision of good quality apprenticeships across all sectors of industry. This would meet the needs of the country for trained and skilled employees and also the aspirations of that 80% of the population who aren't necessarily academically inclined and/or who are looking for good quality paid employment.