Hi, new here. How are you?

We can figure out what they do, maybe even why if we look into their own childhoods or trauma. Yet many who experience trauma don't become abusive or addicts or crazy. They pick themselves up and dust themselves off and just try their little hearts out. So nothing makes it OK. Nothing makes up for not knowing what it feels like to have a loving mother. There is no way of knowing how that would change your own life.

It is a lot to take in but I find it very interesting Starlady.

The 'golden child vs. scapegoat syndrome' isn't exclusively associated with narcissists though, it can and does occur in families where there isn't a narcissistic parent, in varying degrees.

Wow. A lot to take in here. Just want to say that Ive heard of the "golden child vs. scapegoat" syndrome before and always wondered why a parent would do that. But I never thought about the idea that the parent might be a narc. Sad but interesting.

There's a good talk on You Tube by Dr. Todd Grande about 'Narcissism & Physical Abuse (Narcissistic Abuse). Sorry can't do links; it's about 10 minutes long.

He talks of overt narcissism 'V' covert narcissism. The difference between the two is self explanatory. I assume that the term overt is what you're referring too as malignant.

He says that both 'types' of narcissism can result in the abuse of children but research has shown that it is the covert narcissist more likely to go down that road.

Of course it depends on the research looked at but it's an interesting piece and worth viewing.

Generally speaking, they aren't all the same.

Look into the difference between malignant and covert. Malignants are just crappy to everyone and share out the abuse. They usually get away with it because they are wealthy or otherwise in a position of power. Coverts know their behaviour is unacceptable and try to hide it. They start relationships love bombing and by the time they start to scapegoat a partner, they usually recognise they will lose the partner if they carry on. Unfortunately that is around the time they start having children. Children love their parents completely, they are hard wired to. So the narcissist soon realises they can take out much more on a child. They can also treat other children completely differently. Scapegoat versus golden child, narcissists can even do that with identical twins. Malignant ones are usually crappier to one of their children too. At least their children are generally surrounded by people who see the parent as a bit crappy though and have more of a support network.

When looking at the character traits of a narcissist it is IMO easier to see how these materialise within adult relationships, than to understand how and/or why they manifest in the relationships they may have with their children.

As I previously posted, it's impossible to fathom.

"It's a shame you can't diagnose a narc by the pattern of damage they do to their children" I agree but would add, that a narcissist who becomes a parent will most likely have displayed their narcissistic traits in other relationships before becoming a parent.

Its a shame you can't diagnose a narc by the pattern of damage they do to their children. Usually (not always) girls because they envy them and see them as competition.

There's a common train of thought that if a narcissist 'drops their mask' they turn away from and against the person who has seen them for what they truly are.

Psychologists often regard this as the narcissist seeing their true self in the reaction of the person(s) they've unintentionally revealed themselves too.

Unable to accept the reality of their true nature and/or how they're perceived by others, they turn away, distance themselves and make that person their enemy.

We can I'm sure see how this applies to adult relationships but when it comes to a narcissistic parent's relationship with their own child, it's impossible to fathom.

Thought this may be of interest.

The origins of the term narcissism come from the Greek myth of Narcissus, a young handsome hunter whose beauty had become well known.

One day see sees his reflection in a silver pond and falls in love with it. Some myths says he's so enamoured with his image of self that he falls into the pond and drowns. Others, that he pines for his own reflection, is unable to eat or drink so dies.

This myth is taken one step further with the story of Echo, a woodland nymph who instantly falls in loves with Narcissus' beauty the first time she sees him.

She hears him saying 'I love you' to his own reflection and thinks if she repeats those words, he will fall in love with her, but he is so obsessed with his own image that he can't see or hear her. She dies of unrequited love.

Both myths epitomise a Greek tragedy and are still regarded as a reflection of the dynamics of a relationship today with a narcissist.

A person whose love of self is of prime importance is narcissistic. The love that others have for them is secondary to the love they have for themselves, resulting in the destruction of those who try to love them, and the destruction of themselves.

Narcissists don't know they are narcissists. We wonder how they are so good at abuse, how they get it right the first time and successfully hide how abusive they are from their close family and even their chosen victims.

Its because they are a paradox.

You see they can convince most people of anything because they have become so amazingly good at convincing themselves that they are wonderful and their behaviour is justified. A narcissist will convince themselves that neglecting a newborn is justified because that newborn cries too much and ruins their sleep. They will convince themselves that hurting a toddler is justified because that toddler is bad and throws tantrums. They abuse their children and adult children and they know what they are doing is wrong but they will justify it to themselves, they will lie to others and they convince themselves it's the truth.

Because they learn around their 20s or so that if they behave the way they do all the time, they won't have anyone. They pick one person to scapegoat and abuse and create a fake facade for everyone else. This is sometimes a partner, but most often a child they can condition to accept it from birth. And everyone forgets and puts it down to the normal selfish faze teens and young adults often go through. Never knowing the truth. The never really grew up.

Narcissist think the world owes them something and they have been wronged and whatever they do, whoever they abuse to feel better is nothing compared to what they feel, how they perceive their own victim hood. They hurt their own children and then tell everyone else it's the child's fault for attention, because they love attention and they can get plenty of it talking about their difficult child. Even if they lose their scapegoat and don't find another, they can get years and years of attention still.

Narcissist think everyone is the same as them. If they accuse you of doing something, it's because they are doing it. So always watch out for that. You see someone making random accusations, that have no logical reason... That person is probably a narcissist.

They are evil, imagine being evil and thinking you are a perfect deserving angel who just didn't get what you were entitled to in life. That is a narcissist.

BradforLass your post made me sad.

A child, desperate for the love and affection that all children should receive from their parent(s) but is never there must have been so traumatic.

A narcissist entering your life when you're an adult is hard to take and understand but to have had one your entire life, throughout your childhood, well I can't begin to imagine.

I look back to when our ES's wife first came into his life and how as adults we were taken in by her initial charm and I see now, that not knowing her true nature, how we enabled her narcissism.

We took at face value the accusations she made about others. The way she was bullied by one time friends and by a coworker. How she was verbally attacked and abused by these toxic people.

It was only when it was too late, when we'd lost our son and only GC that we realised that in truth, all you had to do was to disagree, to have a different point of view to be regarded as toxic and abusive.

You could only be her friend, her ally and be prepared to go along with everything she said, did and believed or you were her enemy.

We never questioned the validity of her accusations, why would we? Why would someone say such things about anyone if they weren't true?

Our 'wake up call' came too late. The damage to our relationship with our son had already been done and it was too late for us to do anything about it.

We tried of course but failed all the same.

Whether it's a narcissistic parent, a third party who becomes one of your family or a friend, the typical patterns of narcissism are there in everyone of them.

Depending on the nature of your relationship they can manifest in different ways, but the damage and pain they cause is the same.

That's the big question for me, does the toxic psychology of a narcissist mean they can't accept the damage they do to others
or does it mean that they just don't want too.

Namsnanny

As many here know, I've recently had to research for my own personal experience, the patterns of Narcissism and typical they have what is termed a 'golden child' their favourite.

The other poor children grow up desperate for the parental affection they are denied, constantly trying to do and give of their best - nothing works because the toxic psychology of a Narcissits won't (can't?) accept it.

I wonder about that with our ES Starlady if he maybe is aware that his wife lied but is unable to face up to it.

That would be a hell of thing wouldn't it to accuse, judge and condemn your own parents based on what your partner had said about them, had accused them of and then to begin to question the validity of those accusations and whether or not you'd done the right thing by estranging them.

Raised, points taken.

"When my son and gf eventually broke up, maybet he began to wonder if she'd been lying to him but couldn't bring himself to climb down off his high horse and contact me.
But that's only speculation."

Or maybe, sadly, he believed her at the time and hasn't quite faced the fact that she was lying to him yet. How long have they been apart? He may still be struggling w/ the breakup or what led to it. Accepting that other parts of their relationship were filled w/ deception may be too much for him to deal with right now. (I know that's not fair to you and your other DS.)

LostChild that link hit so many nails. Sorry I haven't thanked you till now I had to think it over for a bit.

Starlady you shouldn't feel sorry for my mother, she has no friends. She is also racist and homophobic and a general all around nasty piece of work that I would want nothing to do with even if she wasn't an abusive pile of garbage to me. Well if you want and insight you should probably read LostChild's link, you might find that very interesting.

Thanks for the welcome and the congrats.

Whoa, Namsnanny! I am so sorry! You may not be ready to put a name to it, but what your mum has been doing to you, your dad, etc. is abuse, plain and simple!

Could it be she suffers from a mental illness? Has she ever been evaluated for this?

I just hope you and your AC, etc. know never to eat or drink another thing she tries to serve you. Never. Period.

LC, I know you have been deeply hurt in your life, and I am guessing that the wounds are still not fully healed. I'm sorry if you haven't found much comfort here. But I hope, in time, you will. I'm glad you decided to stay.

Smileless, thanks for the explanation of your username! I admit, I'm one of those who interpreted it as meaning "w/o smiles." And I had a hard time fully understanding it b/c at times, despite the CO, you seem so happy, or, at least, content w/ your life, especially since you moved. The other meaning - "smiles less often" - makes so much more sense! Don't know why I never thought of it! And yes, I'm another one who hopes, eventually, you will become SmilesMore, whether on the board or just in your heart.

Oh, and congratulations on becoming a new nanny!

Welcome, RaisedByWolves! My heart goes out to you! I'm not sure, but I imagine you can find some reading material about toxic relatives or estrangement by googling those topics. Also, I know there is a book called "Toxic Inlaws," and I believe the same author (sorry, don't recall the name) also wrote one entitled, "Toxic Parents," if that's any help.

As for me, I'm a wife, mother and GM (grandmother). Though I'm not estranged from anyone, right now, I have 3 GP friends who are CO (cut off) from their AC (adult children) and their families. Also, I know, "There but for the grace of God, go I." So while I read and comment elsewhere on this site, also, the estrangement forum has captured my interest.

BTW, I feel deeply for anyone who is CO, regardless of whose "fault" it is. Even if they are relieved by the estrangement (and some, apparently, are), I'm sorry it had to come to that.

I don't have any resources from here RBW, but this is my bible. If you suspect a narcissist mother it may be helpful.

parrishmiller.com/narcissists.html

You asked yesterday RaisedbyWolves if anyone had any reading material or resources they could recommend; do have any you could recommend?

Madgran I got off on the wrong foot here, I answered questions honestly, but those questions meant I was justifying myself. I shouldn't have to justify myself. I'm not on trial. The logical next step from justification is defensiveness if there is any hint that that justification is not enough. People I wanted to get on with were hot and cold towards me which caused confusion and upset. Suddenly this then became a "bad place".

It all amounts to not having good boundaries and I'm not neurotypical to begin with so I don't always see that I need them.

It's all a good learning experience

MadeinYorkshire Some people have moved house successfully, and built a new life.

MadeinYorkshire It sounds like you've had a really hard time of it with your daughter.