Difficult Position

I just had this awful vision of her reaching out to my NM to talk about how this is all my fault somehow. Thanks anxiety. Apart from that scenario I'm not too worried. She still has one of my forks though. Strange what pops into your head lol

No no no no no! Don't get involved! Some relationships just fall apart and the only ones that know what happened are the ones directly involved.
This woman is fully aware of what has gone wrong and she is asking you to take sides - especially as she knows you get on with her daughter.
You really don't need this toxic woman in your life, neighbour or not. If you do get involved, she will turn it round on you and you will be the one at fault.

As others have said, it would be better if you stay out of it. But there are professional trained people who can help where there is a breach in a family - well worth their considering. They would have to pay - but what matters more, than our family?Its obviously not for you to decide for them, but you could suggest that they explore this option. Here is one useful link
In Place of Strife: Mediation Services | UK Mediators
mediate.co.uk

I'd be blunt and say "Which bit of "no I wont ask your daughter" do you not understand? Please stop asking" Life's too darn short to waste on this narcissist even if she is your neighbour

Starblaze - I think I’d look at that fork as a price to pay for some peace! If you never got it back, it would be a pity but not the end of the world. Ask yourself “would I be happy to give this up as a path to feeling better” and I expect you’d say “yes”.
It would be a great thing if you didn’t have to deal with this abusive and manipulative woman again.

IF she brings the fork back, then you will just have to make yourself say no again. You can do it. It’s not nice but give yourself some credit, you have said it before and if you do need to do so again, you can.
Keep strong! And hope to bid farewell to that fork!

All good wishes

I would repeat I’ve told you on more than one occasion I won’t be getting involved, it’s not my business you will have to sort this out yourself with your daughter,

Thank you so much everyone. I really doubt myself in these situations and can easily end up trying to help. In this instance I can't help. It's just not my place. It's a shame my neighbour can't see that.

I'd personally go with smileless’response near the top of page 1. She won't take responsibility or accept she's at fault so there's little point in getting into what could be a huge mess.
Her asking must be making you feel anxious and nervous, which is very poor behaviour on her part.
Some people just wont accept no as an answer.
You have my sympathy. ? x

Just tell her your not being piggy in the middle and do your own dirty work .

Do not get involved.

Getting a bit tired of the "narcissism" label getting thrown about. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is an actual mental illness - not a casual term to be thrown around by ill-informed people on social media. Remove yourself from this situation - its toxic and nothing really to do with you. Learn to say "no" and mean it - getting involved in other people's toxic relationships is never a good idea.

I think you would find that I am well informed about my NMs behaviour. She would never be diagnosed as she refused to have anything to do with my therapist. He is qualified to suggest it as the reason for our problems. I wouldn"t try to label anyone else as I already said. She does remind me of my own NM at times which is why I have distanced myself.

A person with NPD is extremely difficult, if not impossible to deal with. It's frightening how they can control, manipulate and influence those around them and the devastation they can cause has to be seen to be believed.

While I agree Saetana that the NPD label does at times get thrown about, anyone who has had the misfortune of coming into contact with a narcissist would not use the term lightly or inappropriately.

There is a lot of information 'out there' about NPD. It was not something we were familiar with until it was suggested to us that our ES's wife may be a narcissist. We did online research and were, to be honest, horrified to find that the characteristics we were reading about were present in our ES's wife.

While we are not medically qualified to make a diagnosis, we know what we've witnessed and personally experienced.

Thank you for saying that Smileless2012

Smileless ... I too agree with your synopsis of the term narcissistic personality disorder.

Although I find too many people use it to attack others.
Ive becomequite concerned for thousewho have had this label Thrown at them on the estrangement threads, just because they don’t agree with each other!
Having a mother who fits the narc text book to a ‘T’I know how tempting it is to use the label as a shorthand to understanding this type of behaviour though !

How are you feeling today....still taking the tablets(as les Dawson might say!)

Starblaze

I'm fine Namsnanny, thanks for asking ..... still taking the tablets.

I agree that we too often see the NPD label given to by some to someone that they disagree with or simply don't like.

When I read the accounts of posters who like Starblaze have had their lives deeply affected by a narcissistic parent, I think about our GC.

What kind of mother is our ES's wife? If there are behaviours that could be detrimental to their well being, would our son be able to address them? He was either unable and/or unwilling to be there for us, so can he be there for their children?

We're adults, we had and have one another to help us to cope with the loss our son and only GC, but our GC are just children.

How deep does her manipulation of him go and how far does it extend? Has it, will it extend to the children?

From what contact our DS has with his brother and his nephews, the children are happy and healthy. There has never been anything to suggest otherwise, but this is something that worries me.

You posted earlier Starblaze about breaking the cycle. I knew our ES's wife's mother for several years before she met our ES. Her mother's father was abusive (ES's wife's GF).

ES's wife's parents had an abusive marriage; he physically abusive and she emotionally abusive. Will she be able to break the cycle? Will our ES be able to help her or will God forbid he go along with her for a quiet life, like he went along with her when it came to destroying our relationship and alienating, apart from his brother, his entire family and long held friendships?

Sometimes labelling another as narcissistic maybe done to take the responsibility from themselves, so they can be seen as a victim. A good reason for an estranging AC to give and a reasonable explanation from and EP and/or EGP for their estrangement.

For the AC of a narcissistic parent, who constantly evaluates their own behaviour for fear of repeating the abusive cycle, it must feel like a constant battle. I don't know; I can hardly imagine how hard that must be.

I do know though, what it's like to be the parent of an EAC who is married to a narcissist and has children with them. As well as the pain of losing your AC and GC there's the fear you have for them, of what their lives are like and what if any, the effect of a narcissistic husband or wife may be having on the AC you've lost as well as the effect a narcissistic mother or father may have on your GC.

The pain eases with time, it's still there but for me anyway it's not as raw as it used to be. Those fears though never lose their intensity.

Smileless2012, I'm no expert but I am educated on aspects of this. It is possible your dil is NPD. I think it would also be very possible your daughter in law is borderline personality disorder. I say this because that is what I was as a result of abuse. I am and have been in remission for a long time. IE. I no longer have it. It can present very similar to NPD. If she were borderline it is very curable. If she has woken up to how abusive her parents are it's possible she will seek help at some point.

I was very defensive, very emotionally volitile, very reactive, clingy and jealous. I was not abusive to my children emotionally and they were loved and cared for. I expected a lot from my husband though and I needed all his attention. I also had depression and anxiety so I made any mistakes early on.

Your dil could think she is protecting your son. Could be controlling and manipulating him through terror of losing him. That's how borderline can come from love not abuse at its root.

It is usually household's where one sibling is scapegoat and others are not that NPD gets passed down. You see the other children are abused differently to the scapegoat and don't recognise it... They normalise and become it.

It's complicated and I would advise reading up on it.

For you, your son and your grandchildren that is what I would hope for.

Thank you Starblaze

There is estrangement in my sister's family. I've made it very clear that I want to see all my wider family so I'll refuse to discuss it and I won't take sides. It's nothing to do with me and it's not my problem. Stick to your guns!

BPD, although similar in outward symptoms at times to NPD. Is very different in that people with BPD have insight and seek help/diagnosis.

People with NPD will not see themselves as the problem so rarely seek diagnosis.

However, some victims of ppl with NPD are professionally diagnosed of having had the experience of living with someone with NPD in their life

So "diagnosis" is usually secondary IYKWIM

People who say that you cant say you have experienced someone with narcissism unless the individual was themselves diagnosed, does not understand Narcissism!

The Narcissist will aim to convince their victim that they are the one who is wrong/mad. "Gaslighting"

People with BPD are the opposite, although some behaviours look the same.

They will often describe themselves as "unlovable" and will do "cry for help" behaviours

The trauma of having a NPD parent can cause BPD

Very true Notanan. I knew there was something wrong with me and at one point I was diagnosed as manic depression, what is now bi polar. So it wasn't until I realised I was being abused that the truth became apparent. I spent years on the wrong medication. I spent years trying to deal with the wrong problem. When I knew the right problem, I had already made massive strides to recovery thanks to having great friends and a good relationship

Hugs, Starblaze!

As for the situation w/ your neighbor, I'm glad you said a firm no. Sorry about how she reacted, but I agree it would have been worse if you had let yourself be dragged in the middle. Also, if this is how she reacted to you, can you imagine how she must react when she and her D have a disagreement? She doesn't realize it, of course, but she just proved that she is the problem.