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Estrangement

Just wanted to let you all know!

(101 Posts)
Noregrets Thu 12-Dec-19 13:11:59

My DH just phoned. He is at the supermarket, and received a text from my SIL. Can we pick up the GC and from school on Monday and have them for tea!
I am dumbstruck

ayse Thu 12-Dec-19 13:13:01

How lovely 😊

Madgran77 Thu 12-Dec-19 13:17:54

Wow, no wonder you are dumb struck, and maybe excited too?

You have your uses...how lovely ...but do be careful noregrets... both with what you do/say when you have the grandchildren and also with being seen as a useful "dogsbody" ..until suddenly you aren't again! It is an emotional rollercoaster flowers

lavenderzen Thu 12-Dec-19 13:21:51

That is so lovely, I am pleased for you flowers

Noregrets Thu 12-Dec-19 13:30:06

Thanks you!

MadGran, yes I am a bit in shock for the moment. It's significant that SIL texted DH, that wouldn't usually happen. It all needs careful handling but fortunately there's time to think carefully.
I don't want to go back to taking on a huge amount of child care, I'm 70 now so don't have too many good years left to do the things most people do in retirement. But it will be wonderful to see the children.
I do think the social worker may have said something, and my middle D agree

Noregrets Thu 12-Dec-19 13:32:50

Agrees!
And it will be necessary to tread carefully with the children, yes. One of them was recruited as Daddy's spy, to report back to him what was said, some time ago. 🙁

EllanVannin Thu 12-Dec-19 13:40:22

Could be because Christmas is coming up, though you do sound as though you'll tread lightly.

MovingOn2018 Thu 12-Dec-19 13:56:02

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

lavenderzen Thu 12-Dec-19 14:00:33

How rude MovingOn2018.

Chewbacca Thu 12-Dec-19 14:01:20

Yay! Excellent news Noregrets, I'm so very pleased for you! smile

MovingOn, what a sour, nasty and unnecessary post that was. Do you feel better for posting that? It speaks volumes about you.

MovingOn2018 Thu 12-Dec-19 14:24:52

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Granniesunite Thu 12-Dec-19 14:26:59

Good news you'll be so pleased and of course you'll take good care of yourself as well as the children. Have a fun time with them. They'll be excited too.

Chewbacca Thu 12-Dec-19 14:30:08

The only thing that's just off about this is your post MovingOn. You're confusing "just speaking your mind" with spiteful, malcontentious and bitter.

Granniesunite Thu 12-Dec-19 14:32:27

Moving on. You sound as if you're very much rooted in unhappiness. Im sorry that you feel like that.Sometimes in life good things do happen. We have to be open and let them in and Noregrets is doing just that. I for one wish them all well.

Noregrets Thu 12-Dec-19 14:41:01

Thanks for defending me folks.
Don't worry, that particular poster has obviously conceived a completely false but fixed impression of my family circumstances.
I intend to ignore her, and if we all do the same, maybe the fun will go out of it for her. She's certainly not going to drive me away.

Chewbacca Thu 12-Dec-19 14:49:20

Acknowledged Noregrets; it was my turn a couple of weekends ago. I agree with your strategy.

MovingOn2018 Thu 12-Dec-19 14:51:50

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MovingOn2018 Thu 12-Dec-19 14:57:59

She's certainly not going to drive me away.

Unlike some posters who think they own this site and try to drive others away - I personally don't want to drive you away. I actually would love it if you stayed. Then just maybe I'd get to read on how the GC were eventually safeguarded from abuse.

Madgran77 Thu 12-Dec-19 15:16:25

Don't worry, that particular poster has obviously conceived a completely false but fixed impression of my family circumstances.

I have to say MovingOn you do appear to have ignored a number of things pointed out on a previous thread ("Mediation") regarding assumptions being made from aspects of Noregrets posts! That thread was eventually deleted by GNHQ! !! I will also follow NoRegrets strategy but felt it was relevant to remind all of previous discussions which eventually were lost because of unfortunate posts.

timetogo2016 Thu 12-Dec-19 15:20:32

AHHHHH bless you.
Christmas has come early for you.
Love a happy post.

Noregrets Thu 12-Dec-19 15:56:20

Bless the genuine and compassionate people here. I have pointed out to Gransnet that despite them deleting earlier comments, the onslaught continues.

Noregrets Thu 12-Dec-19 16:07:55

Just to be clear to anyone new to my situation. I was the person who reported the children's situation to children's services, almost a month ago. Two years ago, I was on the verge of doing so, but my daughter stepped up to the plate and things improved dramatically. The children all confirmed that they had no worries, and lived their Daddy. Phew.

Two years on, one of the children told me that recently, her Daddy's behaviour had become abusive again, in secret. I told my youngest D, who failed to protect them. Leaving me no choice but to report to children's services.

I was then cut off. But thankfully the children did disclose to school staff and a social worker, who remains involved.

Noregrets Thu 12-Dec-19 16:10:38

Loved their Daddy!

lavenderzen Thu 12-Dec-19 16:42:20

Noregrets I am sorry to read your story. You did what you had to do and what you felt was right. Being a mother is the hardest job on this earth.

I am so glad things are turning around for you flowers

SarahCGransnet (GNHQ) Thu 12-Dec-19 17:06:12

Just a reminder to get this conversation back on track. We've had to delete a few comments already - anymore and the discussion will stop making sense. There have been some interesting comments, so it would be a shame to have to delete the thread.

Madgran77 Thu 12-Dec-19 17:09:20

Thankyou SarahCGransnet

dragonfly46 Thu 12-Dec-19 17:15:00

So pleased for you Noregrets. At the end of the day the children's welfare is paramount and you being in their lives will help to insure that.

Smileless2012 Thu 12-Dec-19 17:45:12

Just got back from shopping and putting it all away so have just seen this.

tchgrintchgrintchgrin this is sooooo wonderful Noregrets

Can't tell you how thrilled I am; Christmas just may have come early for you x

sodapop Thu 12-Dec-19 19:25:06

Definitely good news Noregrets enjoy your time with your grandchildren. You did what was necessary to protect them that must have been difficult for you. Happier times ahead .

Noregrets Thu 12-Dec-19 19:46:29

I just wish I had found all of you lovely people years ago. I have felt like the only GP dealing with difficult issues for so long, but here you were, all that time.

I do know that there is a body of research which shows that a significant emotional presence of even one person can help babies, toddlers, children, to develop resilience and self esteem.

That was my aim, and hopefully, my achievement. My youngest D has her own health problems, and 4 children, two with a degree of special needs, is a huge responsibility. And because of her own health difficulties, much of that burden devolved to her husband, and to me. And it could be overwhelming, especially for him. Although that is no excuse to become abusive to defenceless children.

It has been a difficult and yet hugely rewarding 8 years. It has often felt like I have been struggling to keep the children safe and happy, without having a place where I could find understanding and informed support.

And here you all were, and I didn't know it.

Namsnanny Thu 12-Dec-19 19:47:14

What a lovely development Noregrets flowers
Best of luck for Monday. smile

Buffybee Thu 12-Dec-19 19:48:42

Hi Noregrets, I remember your previous thread and how devastated you were to be estranged from your Gc, after trying to protect them.
I seem to remember it was the little girl who confided in you about the abuse and her youngest brother had been encouraged to report back to Sil anything she told you.
I was worried myself when they cut you off, thinking of that little girl without her Gran to confide in.
I'm very pleased that you have been asked to pick the Gc up from school and to give them tea. I think that the best advise I can give would be to completely ignore the cutting off and act as though it never happened.
Least said, soonest mended, as they say.
Hope it all goes well for you all.flowers

Noregrets Thu 12-Dec-19 20:01:50

Thank you Buffybee. I do feel a need to say something to her, but don't want to say too much.

I hope I can use the next few days to get the opinions of people like you as to how to handle it.

To me, it feels as if I at least need to say something like, "I'm sorry if things have been difficult for you, but I was so worried about you, so thought I should tell someone what you told me so that they could help to sort things out"

And even then, to only do that if I have a few minutes alone with her?

Or maybe her brother needs to hear that? But not if he reports back of course!

Some wine has been taken, so hope this all makes sense!

All advice gratefully received!

Chewbacca Thu 12-Dec-19 20:10:05

I'm rubbish at advice Noregrets and so have nothing to offer except, tread carefully and let your daughter do the talking at first. That way, you won't be accused of offering unsolicited advice or risk putting your foot in it. Baby steps for a little while? Anyway, you've made good progress already today and so can look forward to being with your GC again.

All the very best.

Noregrets Thu 12-Dec-19 20:37:02

Hi Chewbacca. I am only considering what to say to the granddaughter who disclosed the abuse right now. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
I do wonder why it was my SIL who contacted my husband rather than my youngest D, the children's mother. But I just want to focus on the children first, then their Mummy later.
But thank you ❤️

Chewbacca Thu 12-Dec-19 20:52:01

Told you I was rubbish at advice Noregrets! grin

Noregrets Thu 12-Dec-19 21:43:45

Chewbacca 💓💓💓

Smileless2012 Thu 12-Dec-19 22:03:22

I would wait and see if when you're alone, your GD says anything to you Noregrets. You have a close bond with her in particular, so you will know instinctively I'm sure if there's anything that she's worried or upset about.

If you sense that there is you could ask if she's OK, if anything's worrying or upsetting her.

Bless her heart, she's very honest with you and trusting of you so I think she'll probably say something without you having to ask.

I'm not suggesting you shouldn't broach the subject, I just think it would be better if she talks to you without you saying anything, but I appreciate that may not be the case and your need to explain and reassure her.

Such a delicate and difficult situation which you are handling with courage and sensitivityflowersx

Noregrets Thu 12-Dec-19 22:26:27

Thank you so very much! I think it is interesting that we have been asked to have all three younger children. The only boy being his Daddy's designated spy. I feel I need to let IJ know how she could protect herself in the future, without him knowing.
Bless him, I can see that he has been more distant in hindsight. But still, at bedtime, seeking out my hand and clinging to it. Poor confused boy. 😔
How do I let IJ know without putting him in a difficult position. They used to be so close.

Noregrets Fri 13-Dec-19 01:39:31

Thanks Smileless. ❤

I do think I need to mention how much her brave disclosure led to me alerting children's services. An then move swiftly on, without her much loved brother disguintg some significant similarities.

Sussexborn Fri 13-Dec-19 01:59:47

Not sure of the whole story but if the vast majority are happy and pleased for you I am sure it must be a good thing!

Starlady Fri 13-Dec-19 11:27:58

Great news, Noregrets! Thanks for sharing! IMO, it was very brave of you to step up to the plate the way you did. You sacrificed your own interested/risked getting CO for the sake of the children. Kudos! And yes, I know you did get CO, but, thankfully, SIL seems to have had a change of heart (at least for now, I don't blame you for approaching this cautiously).

To my knowledge, it's unusual for parents in this kind of situation to reach out to the GPs so "quickly." So I, too, suspect the social worker had an influence here. Either way, you, DH, and the GC are lucky. Hope all continues to go well, especially, of course, for the kids.

IMO, you are the hero in their lives. Bravo!

Noregrets Fri 13-Dec-19 13:00:44

Wow Starlady, thank you for such high praise. I am unsure whether contact will continue if the case is closed but I will try my best to enjoy seeing the children without worrying about the future. It was a hard decision to make of course, and a dreadful situation to be in. Thank you again x

MovingOn2018 Fri 13-Dec-19 13:29:57

How do I let IJ know without putting him in a difficult position. They used to be so close.

Your relationship with your granddaughter is not - (and shouldn't) - be more important than the close relationship she currently has with her own brother. And if there's anything you plan to do or say that may/will jeopardize their relationship, then you obviously should'nt do it for it wouldn't be in the childrens best interest. hmm

I do know that there is a body of research which shows that a significant emotional presence of even one person can help babies, toddlers, children, to develop resilience and self esteem.

True! But the key word here should be fit. One fit individual.

I feel I need to let IJ know how she could protect herself in the future, without him knowing.

Really? hmm

Thought your other post mentioned that you'd stop posting on this story but since you still are then we the readers should be free to offer feedback without the OP accusing views that don't exactly mirror or validate hers, as "Onslaught."

Smileless2012 Fri 13-Dec-19 13:36:33

There's a huge difference between offering feedback that isn't in accordance with the OP's views and an onslaught MovingOn.

If you could learn the difference maybe so many of your posts wouldn't be deleted.

MovingOn2018 Fri 13-Dec-19 13:51:06

Smileless2012 A person that's bad in math and has failed severally for almost a decade, obviously can't tutor another on how to be better in the subject. They will fail just like their tutor did - if not worse.

This should apply to relationships and those who've obvioulsy not done anything to remove themselves from the strained situation that they themselves are in - yet feel that they are the voice of those who find themselves in a similar situation. More especially when the said oerson has come to tems with their strained relationship and the other is looking for means to repair it.

And of course theres a huge difference between offering feedback that isn't in accordance with the OP's views and an onslaught. This should be obvious. But we are not here to validate her views either OK.

MovingOn2018 Fri 13-Dec-19 13:54:20

I mean are we now going to offer advice to this GP that supports the idea of her relationship with her GC being more important than the relationship her GC share with their sibling?

Smileless2012 Fri 13-Dec-19 13:54:26

You just carry on MovingOn bringing your bitter negativity to a thread started by the OP because of the good news she's received. Good news that has been welcomed by everyone but you.

MovingOn2018 Fri 13-Dec-19 14:02:54

Onslaught?

Please stop being ridiculous! If I wanted to be a false victim, then I'd very loosely throw this word around too anytime i didnt like what I was being told.

How is any of this in the GC best interests is the main point? Whats best for the GC and not whats best for the GP.

Plus if the parents were abusive to the children, why is it always this one child (IJ) that she's so ever concerned about and feels the need to protect? What about the other children?

MovingOn2018 Fri 13-Dec-19 14:07:29

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Smileless2012 Fri 13-Dec-19 14:17:04

Well I could but I've better things to do with my time and you're just not worth the effort.

MovingOn2018 Fri 13-Dec-19 15:09:33

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Starlady Fri 13-Dec-19 15:46:47

"I feel I need to let IJ know how she could protect herself in the future, without him knowing.... How do I let IJ know without putting him in a difficult position."

Such a tricky situation, Noregrets. Bless you for weighing your choices carefully. I know there are no easy decisions here.

I agree w/ Smileless that it's better to wait till IJ raises the subject (if she does). But either way, if you do give her some advice, perhaps only if GS is otherwise occupied? In other words, could you arrange to have some time alone w/ IJ while DH does something separately w/ the other two GC? Since you seem to have beneficial info for her about protecting herself, it might be worth doing this. Will this info also help protect the other two kids?

Barmeyoldbat Fri 13-Dec-19 16:05:59

Wonderful news and thanks for sharing. I think all you need to do at this point is be gentle, keep communication open so that your gd will talk to you and be inclusive with your kindness and concern to the whole family but keep a watchful eye. I wouldn't bring up the subject yet, just wait and see how she is.

MovingOn, I don't want to appear a bully or disrecptpful to you but you do seem to have a problem, you are NOT the expert in all this. Social Services are involved and will guide
the family and give advice. We are here just to express support and opinions in all this. Maybe you could make your posts just a bit less angry.

Madgran77 Fri 13-Dec-19 16:47:58

I can see nothing in the situation that you have described Noregrets or the information that you chosen to share, that suggests that you think you are the most important thing in your AC family. Not do I see anything that suggest that you are trying to sever any relationship that doesn't go through you! flowers

NatashaGransnet (GNHQ) Fri 13-Dec-19 16:59:36

Just another reminder to get the thread back on track. Obviously estrangement is a sensitive topic that not everyone will see eye to eye on, but please do refrain from personal comments and remain civil.

Smileless2012 Fri 13-Dec-19 17:04:08

With respect NatashaGranset there is only one poster who is once again being insensitive here.

welbeck Fri 13-Dec-19 17:08:06

i don't understand.
what does the poster who thinks this granny is at fault, what is she doing wrong.
maybe I don't know the whole back story, but it's like trying to read old letters where half the writing has disappeared.
long time since I had to do textual criticism and wasn't good at it then. give us a clue, what are you talking about.

Smileless2012 Fri 13-Dec-19 17:35:04

Having a different point of view is of course fine welbeck as long as it's given politely and in a case like this, with a degree of sensitivity.

'Half the writing has disappeared' because the unpleasant and offensive posts were reported and deleted.

Noregrets Fri 13-Dec-19 17:54:26

New development. I had almost decided that this offer of contact was only because of social work involvement and it wouldn't last. I also have made some headway towards feeling comfortable with what to say to the children, more later, as I just had a phone call from the mediation service. And now it seems that perhaps their contact with SIL and youngest daughter may have led to the offer of contact.
The service rang to say that SIL had said no to mediation as it wasn't necessary. So ........
But just in case it's helpful to someone else, the service are now going to issue me with the certificate which allows application to the court for contact. And it lasts 4 months.
Hopefully I won't need it!
And just to clarify for anyone interested, the reason I have focussed more on one particular child is that she was the one who disclosed to me and the only one scapegoated by her daddy, being emotionally and physically abused by him.

HolyHannah Fri 13-Dec-19 18:14:23

Noregrets -- If the children are growing up in the environment you describe then I truly suggest you reevaluate how you are handling the situation.

Your assertion that your main concern is for ONE of the grands is problematic. IF they are growing up in an abusive environment ALL the children are being abused. The abuse is just different between the children.

By showing particular concern for the GD and calling the GS 'a spy', you are now modeling the same behavior the kids are seeing at home only in reverse. This is not helpful to the children or the situation.

You need to show BOTH/ALL (I don't recall if there are more then 2 children involved) that they are loved and supported. It's easy to slip into the idea that one child needs 'more help' and as a child of an abusive environment, I would have welcomed "special attention/care" from anyone.

However, as an adult who has gone through recovery, I can see now that all that does is perpetuate the systematic abuse of a dysfunctional family.

MovingOn's delivery may be direct, but the points on putting ALL the children first is certainly true. If someone isn't contributing to a solution, they are adding to the issues and not helping anyone.

Noregrets Fri 13-Dec-19 18:36:40

Holy Hannah.I will answer this one more time. All the 3 younger children were being abused by their older brother and not protected by their parents. I have already posted about how the little boy was being recruited as a "spy" by his father and how detrimental that was to him, and especially his otherwise close relationship with his sister. And how close he was to me.
I reported concerns about all the children, even though only one felt able to disclose. Even the oldest child was being harmed by being allowed to bully/abuse his younger siblings.
If you aren't even sure how many GC I am concerned about, I question your ability to ask informed questions. Maybe you are over identifying with what you perceive as echoes of your own experience?

Noregrets Fri 13-Dec-19 18:39:07

And only one of the children was being emotionally and physically abused by their father. As I have stated several times. It was not a question of favouritism, her experience was worse.

HolyHannah Fri 13-Dec-19 19:03:03

Noregrets -- "And just to clarify for anyone interested, the reason I have focussed more on one particular child is that she was the one who disclosed to me and the only one scapegoated by her daddy, being emotionally and physically abused by him."

What am I not understanding in that statement? You SAY you are concerned more "on one particular child" and then you say she is "the only one scapegoated".

You seem concerned about my ability to perceive and say, "I question your ability to ask informed questions." I am basing my inquiries on YOUR WORDS.

"I reported concerns about all the children, even though only one felt able to disclose. Even the oldest child was being harmed by being allowed to bully/abuse his younger siblings." This is why I said you need to focus on them ALL.

Showing that you love and support them ALL regardless of their trained behavior from the abusive environment, YOU will be a voice of calm and reason in their world. In abusive environments the children are being pitted against each other, you should be working to bring them together so they can hopefully support each other.

You said, "her experience was worse." No it is/was not. Abuse is ABUSE. The fact that you believe in degrees of abuse is troubling.

Chewbacca Fri 13-Dec-19 19:14:01

You've explained yourself, and your situation, so many times Noregrets; if people are still struggling to get their heads around it, I'd just leave them to it if I was you. You owe no one an explanation; you've explained in great detail and left little room for misunderstandings. Sometimes there's just no point in trying any further. flowers

Madgran77 Fri 13-Dec-19 19:56:26

It is very unfortunate that, when Noregrets had explained clearly the issues regarding her situation on her first thread, that thread eventually had to be deleted because of inappropriate posting.

She then, instead of being able to just update on her original thread which gave all aspects of her situation, she had to start a new thread to update and to ask for further advice. This means that not all the information she was originally willing to share on her situation is available for other posters to see, to give context to her later comments and discussions. Understandably she does not want to keep repeating herself and re-explaining, and if the original thread remained then there would no need for her to do that.

I think this really does demonstrate the importance of posts not having to be deleted, and the importance of posters considering how they post, how they avoid derailing threads...for the good of everyone who wants to use GN as a useful resource! I think it is a great shame how many posts have had to be deleted recently by GN. I really hope the problem stops soon.

Granniesunite Fri 13-Dec-19 20:17:32

Agree madgran and Chewbacca. I’m fairly new to posting on these threads although I have been reading them for a few years and getting comfort from the sensible posters as well.

It’s such a great pity that some threads have been deleted and therefore new folks can’t follow the story?

My observations have been that it’s one or two unreasonable posters that seem to be responsible.

My question is why can’t GN deal directly with these people and leave the thread running.?

OutsideDave Fri 13-Dec-19 20:33:33

Agree fully with HH. None of this sits right. All the talk of their ‘special relationship’ and referring to a grandchild as daddy’s little spy. I hope the grandkids are ok, and that their sibling relationship is healthy. I don’t know that anyone involved is doing anything to benefit the children so I just hope social services is going to keep an eye on things.

Smileless2012 Fri 13-Dec-19 21:07:37

Couldn't agree with you more Chewbacca and Madgran. Had the previous thread that Noregrets had previously posted on not been deleted then there would have been no need for her to start a new one.

For me there is nothing troubling with what you have done Noregrets in order to try and safeguard the safety and well being of your GC.

It's good that you are going to be issued with a certificate that allows you to apply to the courts for contact and lasts for 4 months.

Too often we hear of cases where social services have let down the vulnerable and at risk; thank goodness that isn't the case here.

I'm not surprised that for you "none of this sits right" OutsideDave. It doesn't fit your agenda that all EGP's are selfish, thinking only of themselves and putting their needs before the welfare of their GC.

Social services are keeping an eye on things due to the courageous and selfless act of the children's GM who was prepared to sacrifice her contact with them, in order to ensure their safety and well being.

Chewbacca Fri 13-Dec-19 21:12:01

Well that won't sit right Smileless! grin

Noregrets Fri 13-Dec-19 21:13:31

Oh I was waiting for you to appear. The term Daddy's spy comes from the children themselves. They still have a strong attachment to each other, despite efforts to divide them. I share your positive view about social care involvement.

But this thread has been negatively affected by a few individuals, so I suggest it has outlived it's usefulness. I'm still going to be sticking around though, because I value the input of some very special people. You know who you are! 😘

Noregrets Fri 13-Dec-19 21:16:38

Thanks Smileless, Chewbacca, Madgran et al. 😘

Smileless2012 Fri 13-Dec-19 21:29:14

That's interesting Noregrets you say "affected" and I was thinking of infected.

It hasn't outlived it's usefulness, we need threads like this, that show how important it is in some cases for GP's not to give up, to be there for their GC because tragically their parents aren't their for them, the way they should be.

Make sure you stick around because we're sticking around too.

Smileless2012 Fri 13-Dec-19 21:30:43

Chewbacca tchgrin

Smileless2012 Fri 13-Dec-19 21:31:49

oops that should have been 'aren't there for them' not theirblush.

Noregrets Fri 13-Dec-19 21:47:40

Oh, I'm a bit (lot?) of a grammar and spelling stickler too Smileless 😊

Smileless2012 Fri 13-Dec-19 21:57:29

I used to drive our boys mad with both written and spoken Noregrets; still do with DS. Now days he just pats me on the head when I correct himtchhmm.

Noregrets Fri 13-Dec-19 22:14:53

When I was a manager, and had to approve court reports, the team called me (?fondly?) Attilla the Pen!

Smileless2012 Fri 13-Dec-19 22:24:40

Oh that's great. Mr. S. and DS call me 'hang them high judge .....' !

Starblaze Fri 13-Dec-19 22:40:20

I'm surprised you were thinking of getting her alone to question her NoRegrets, you must know asking leading questions invalidates evidence. Just keep a journal of things that crop up or something? Enjoy time with them. Like you said, children need a positive loving role model. Why would you risk them losing that again when SS and all organisations they are connected too (school, doctor, hospital etc for people who don't know) would be keeping a close eye any way.

Smileless2012 Fri 13-Dec-19 23:19:50

Noregrets has said nothing about questioning her GD.

Noregrets Sat 14-Dec-19 07:58:01

Thanks for that Smileless! I have never for one minute thought about questioning the children, but I have reflected upon what I might say to them.
It doesn't feel right to say nothing to them about what has been such a difficult time for everyone. So I'm just going to acknowledge that it has been, including for their Mum and Dad, and not much more, except to mention something about bravery etc. Still thinking about the details, but it is gradually taking shape.

Smileless2012 Sat 14-Dec-19 09:00:51

I see what you mean Noregrets and it will be good to acknowledge that it's been difficult for everyone including their mum and dad.

I did think to be begin with that you should take your lead from the children; see if they say anything but on reflection I think you're right.

You must be so excited about seeing them on Mondaytchsmile.

Starblaze Sat 14-Dec-19 12:58:25

I really don't think it's a good idea regardless. You have the opportunity to see them and will risk it for the future.

Starlady Sat 14-Dec-19 13:45:31

Thanks for the update, Noregrets! I may be wrong, but I have a feeling you're right about the mediation call prompting the parents to initiate some contact. If they said yes to mediation, they might end up having to stick to an agreement about how often to let you see the GC. Or they would refuse to compromise and the case would end up in court. This way, they still retain some control over how much you see the kids, so that may make them feel better. And as long as they allow some visiting, I guess, they feel you can't make a visitation case. But, no matter, b/c you're getting to see the kids and keep an eye on things, so that's good.

Of course, you're right, they could end the contact at some point for whatever reason (or no reason). So I'm glad you got that certificate. Like you, I hope you don't have to use it.

I agree that all the children are hurt by this situation, no matter what role they play (scapegoat, Golden Child, or whatever). Fortunately, I've never been in an abusive situation, so I might not know whereof I speak, but I understand your feeling that one child may have it "worse" than the others. For example, if all the kids in a family were beaten every day, it would be harmful to them all, physically, mentally, and emotionally. But if one were also called cruel names while they were beaten, their experience might be "worse" in that sense. Or, oh, IDK, if one were frequently locked in a closet or maybe in a basement that, say, was full of cockroaches or rats (I'm making this up and probably not doing a very good job of it), they would probably have worse memories than the others, even nightmares, etc. So yes, they would have gone through a "worse" experience than the others, even though they are all hurt by just being in that atmosphere.

I admit, I'm not sure why you see IJ as a scapegoat and not the others who have been abused. But perhaps she tends to get blamed for things more than the others? Or??

As for the little guy, I'm sure you don't call him a "spy" to his face and are just saying that to us. It's sad that his siblings see him as that though. Does he see himself that way? How awful that the parents pit the kids against each other. No doubt, that's part of the abuse, as I think another poster indicated. Divide and conquer and control (sigh).

Regardless, you're the one who had the courage to step forward and report the abuse. And now SS is involved, and I trust, all the children will benefit. I wish you and those kids all the best!

Noregrets Sat 14-Dec-19 15:58:20

Thanks Starlady

Yes, the information about the little boy's role, as outlined by his Daddy, came from the children.
I have always believed that all 4 children are being abused in different ways.

But only one was vilified by her Daddy. He seemed determined to destroy her self esteem for some reason. Constant unfair criticism, blaming her unfairly for minor infringements, whilst her siblings were not even criticised for their own similar actions, etc.

And her two same age siblings were undoubtedly harmed by being commanded to physically attack her, but how alone she must have felt in that situation. It was heartbreaking to see her break down, wailing that her Daddy wouldn't really care if she died.

The siblings had always been so close, it's a vile thing to do to them all. To see her looking so broken, and yet so frightened her siblings would hear her distress, and report back to Daddy that she had broken down in front of me, was devastating.

And then their Mummy didn't take any action to protect them, when I let her know. And yet she knew similar stuff had happened two years previously, when she had acted to protect them.

Most posters have understood how terrible the whole experience was, for me too. I have no regrets about reporting the situation to children's services. And I cannot avoid people with an axe to grind criticising me here. Many of them are projecting their own feelings onto my grandchildren's experience.

We can only do the right thing as we see it, at any given time. And I would not hesitate to do the same again.

Starblaze Sat 14-Dec-19 16:09:16

It's not really NoRegrets, it's AC who WERE abused themselves who know the mistakes that were made by those around them which really didn't help their situation at home. Worth listening too really. It does seem whether it is sugar coated or not you are determined to do things your way anyway.

Noregrets Sat 14-Dec-19 16:46:22

My SIL was an abused child. That does not excuse him becoming an abuser himself. You really do need to leave your childhood behind. I was an abused child too, and I did.

Chewbacca Sat 14-Dec-19 16:50:35

I was an abused child too, and I did.

Me too *Noregrets and so did I.

Noregrets Sat 14-Dec-19 16:56:18

Chewbacca 💕

Starblaze Sat 14-Dec-19 16:56:47

I don't know that you are actually reading what I am saying. Yes I have left my abuse behind, but it did not end till 4 years ago. However, I can learn from my experience and use it to educate/help others. Help other children and their relatives in order to best protect children. Children being my main concern as that is who I am in the home and at work.

Also telling someone they should "leave your childhood behind" as if moving on from damaging experiences has some sort of timescale, is both invalidating and a disgusting thing to say. I hope you wouldn't ever dream of saying that to your grandchildren if they came to you in later life and said that they were struggling to overcome aspects of their upbringing. Childhood abuse leaves a legacy, it literally changes the brain. It's not a case of just getting over it, it is a literal fight against anxiety, depression and cptsd that can be lifelong.

As a social worker you should know all this. I am however struggling to believe you were a good one. Frankly after what you just said I have lost all respect for you as a social worker or a person.

Best of luck to your grandchildren in the future.

Starblaze Sat 14-Dec-19 16:57:57

Hiding the post now. Truly disgusted

Noregrets Sat 14-Dec-19 17:34:17

Whatever you say is water off a duck's back to me. You are impelled by your own prejudices. Which counts for nothing as far as I am concerned. You do not have a monopoly on the truth, and certainly not on the perspective of people who experienced childhood abuse and overcame it.

Chewbacca Sat 14-Dec-19 18:44:40

Well said Noregrets. Very well put.

endlessstrife Sat 14-Dec-19 19:27:58

I don’t really know what’s been going on here, but it sounds like you’ve been like my granny was once to me. When I was 12, I confided in her, that my dad was verbally abusive and threatening to my mum ( her daughter). I remember being worried that I may get into trouble, but she said to leave it with her. The problem went away, and nothing was ever said to me. GP’s can be a good safety net sometimes.

Noregrets Sat 14-Dec-19 19:32:49

Endless strife, thank you. Hope life is better for you now, but your name suggests otherwise. Hope that's not the case 🙏

Starlady Sat 14-Dec-19 19:53:53

I can barely get my mind around the idea of a parent getting some of his children to attack another. So horrendous!

I am sorry to hear you were a victim of child abuse, yourself, Noregrets. But perhaps your experience is what has given you the courage to stand up for your grands.

My heart goes out, also, to the others here who were victims of abuse as children. It must take so much inner strength to get past that and become the caring adults/parents/GPs you all seem to be. It's no surprise to me that you have different perspectives on what should be done for abused kids, based on your own experiences, etc. But I'm sure you all want whatever is best for such children.

For Noregret's GC, it seems that her choices have made a positive difference. I hope I'm right about that, and if so, I hope it lasts.

Noregrets Sun 15-Dec-19 05:46:25

Starlady 😘

endlessstrife Sun 15-Dec-19 11:08:11

Awww, no it’s fine Noregrets, it’s more a reflection of our surname! I do remember things were better after I spoke to my granny, who I absolutely loved. I think as I got older, I could see more, why my dad acted like he did. He mellowed and my mum became more difficult. Since he died, I haven’t seen her. I’ve been very happy with my husband and children, and now grandchildren. It sounds like you did all the right things. We can only do what’s right at the time. That adage came from my dad!

Smileless2012 Sun 15-Dec-19 13:23:38

There do already seem to be some positive changes for Noregrets' GC Starlady which is very good news indeed. Going to their GP's for tea tomorrow having been prevented from seeing them for a while.

Your GM sounds like she provided precisely what you needed endlessstrifesmile. It sounds as if was a safety net for you just as Noregrets is being for GC.

Noregrets and Chewbaccasmile. Being abused in your childhood is not an easy thing to overcome but it is possible. I rarely think of my own childhood experience. Occasionally it's triggered by something I read, hear or see but in general it isn't something I think about.