Gove's latest - computer programming for all...

I am not for computers in primary schools. Let them get their 3 Rs perfect first. Who is to do teach this programming? If he/she were good at it they wouldn't be teaching. What do future employers need? It seems they would like job applicants to have some knowledge of the world we live in, not only the cyber world. How to be clean and tidy and punctual and to be able to plan in advance not only to plan the next 5 minutes by way of their Iphone or mobile.

Then there are thinking skills. Design skills, when you have head full of ideas then you can be taught programming. It seems strange to me that England which has not enough technicians and engineers, lays so much value on programming when other countries first teach their children basic subjects and then at 15 or 16 get to grips with these computing skills at technical colleges prior to University.

I can't think these ideas about programming are anything other than one possible sort of Key Stage 4 course. Business studies is normally available at Key Stage 4 too, I would hate to see it any earlier. I am intrigued about the idea of throwing out the Programmes of Study - surely not at Key Stage 1 and 2? Is the Key Stage 3 curriculum that bad? It shouldn't be - the ideas in the Key Stage 3 ICT strategy were pretty sound, I thought.
It made me really cross when he had a go at the Labour government for spending money on hardware. What were the children supposed to work on? All hardware and software goes out of date, surely that is obvious? Yes, it used to be more expensive, but you have to work with what you have got. Oh yes - and an interactive whiteboard is not just an electronic blackboard, it is a far more exciting medium for teaching than that. Grrr....

I know someone who was asked to be part of a tory "think tank" type thing on a particular topic. He went along once just to be nosy. Apparently the level of thinking about policy was very low.
I am all for computer programming for grammar schools and kids who are in upper ability levels in english maths and science. But for those struggling to master the basics it is surely a waste of time. And there is no business studies in the national curriculum is there.
It is true though mamie that you can see some fantastic use of powerpoint in year 8 students that cant really read yet!
One day Gove is spouting about giving control to schools and the next intervening at quite a detailed level in what we should teach. Any day now he will make a modern foreign language compulsory again...

Haha Mamie. Yes, same here - it seems to be their uniform. They're graduate whizzkids who've been told if they get some groundwork in various government departments they will be fast-tracked into executive positions by the time they're thirty. There's an allegedly true story about one new entrant being placed with the DWP and when chairing a meeting about family budgets for the pensioned and unemployed population, he suggested that they could cut budgets by doing their own interior designing!

Quite agree Carol. I remember being on a consultation event just as you describe and the person leading it said; "At some point in the morning someone will come from the DfES (or whatever it was at that point), you will know who they are because they will be wearing red braces and look about ten years old". And they did.

Isn't that true, Mamie. You never know what developments are just around the corner. The young people now in school will be the ones that implement these developments. My GS, aged 7, is already taking an interest in re-programming computer games.

That's just it, Mamie. So-called experts are asked to give their opinions so the government can fast-track ideas they may have generated without doing the groundwork. Before retirement, I attended many a forum at the Ministry of Justice, convened by some civil servant who had been moved into a new post and wanted to get a handle on what was current thinking about whichever issue they had to deliver information on to a minister. Our job was to educate them in the space of a morning! The cheapest way to gather information was to summon staff from all parts of the country, so the civil servants could sit in their ivory tower and not have to travel out of London.

Multi-grade meetings would be held to generate some 'smart' ideas, and we would see these suggestions transformed into policy documents without being tested elsewhere. Before we knew it, a paper or set of guidelines would have been issued nationally, and accompanying targets imposed on all staff.

This woolly thinking can get quite ridiculous, and show up in legislation. For example, a decade or so ago, it was decided that 'just desserts' (yes, the spelling is correct!) would be meted out to repeat offenders, so that disproportionate sentences could be justified, on the advice of 'experts.' We ended up with silly jail sentences e.g. for theft of a box off tissues value £2, a man who had committed two previous, more serious offences, was sent to prison for 2 weeks! This was because he had racked up three convictions. That legislation was soon got rid of, but shows how barmy 'experts' can be.

Michael Gove will get information from civil servants who don't always know what they are talking about.

As a former ICT adviser / inspector I have been watching this debate with interest. Basically I think we have got ICT in primary schools more or less right (not perfect by any means), but there has always been a problem with ICT in secondary schools, exacerbated by a shortage of ICT teachers. I think you do need to make the distinction between digital literacy (which is basically what the primary curriculum and most of Key Stage 3 is about) and the various Key Stage 4 (14-16) courses. I think the idea of doing some more exciting programming is a good one, but as Jess says it will be very hard to find teachers for this. Of course, it may be that some of this can and should be delivered remotely, but if it isn't already underway then it certainly won't be ready quickly.
For once, I am not jumping up and down with rage at what Gove has suggested, but it will be interesting to see what is actually proposed. One thing I do know is that the teaching profession has to be at the heart of this. I remember when I was a freshed-faced ICT adviser back in the eighties, being told by an "expert" from industry that what we had to teach the children to do was to learn to program in MS DOS; that would have been useful - wouldn't it?

I agree, JessM, but if teachers can be found to teach computer science, surely this could be part of the technology programme in the school; use of ICT could be subsumed into business studies courses. Children in primary schools already get a pretty good grounding in the use of software and as things are, computer literacy should be a basic part of a child's education.
Carol, I like the description 'sheepdip politics'!

That's interesting JessM. Michael Gove seems to hitch a ride with the latest fads. My grandson's grammar school in Trafford has started on a curriculum of coding/programming, which apparently is more appropriate for the future workplace - he's nearly 12, so here's hoping this fad will last whilst he gets through college and university (she says cynically!) over the next 9 or 10 years.

Another example of sheepdip politics - one size had better fit all!