Interesting? Frightening?

Lazygirl never a truer word was spoken (or typed! ).

Jalima I live in the Midlands and it feels like the EDL turns up somewhere every few months. There's a lot of towns with multicultural communities to choose from where it's not been before. The town nearest to me it came to a few years ago was a marginal seat and there's an army barracks not too far away (it claims to campaign for better treatment of our forces personnel past and present). So it was a bit of a political hot-spot.

Thankfully nobody wants the EDL turning up anywhere near where they live. Usually there's a call for the demo to be banned on grounds of public safety, but that doesn't seem to happen. The cost of policing is high, especially when the demo is on a weekend. The EDL has no formal membership and communication with supporters is mainly through Facebook. It just announces where the next event will be and people turn up. This makes police numbers difficult to estimate. The EDL's origin is in football hooliganism and that is reflected in the violence that often occurs at demos. The EDL protesters arrive armed with crude weapons and apparently it always tries to break through the police cordons to get at counter protesters. Not all counter-protesters are the 'good guys' btw and have been known to cross the line of peaceful protest.

Shopkeepers and businesses close up because of the potential for damages or worse. That happens even if businesses are closed, so there's the clean up costs to consider. The number of counter-protesters always outnumbers the EDL protesters by a large margin, but the EDL has achieved its objective by then by getting maximum publicity for its cause.

Ironically if you look at the EDL website you can see that it is full of lucid and articulate statements. The problem is you would not automatically match the information on the website with the reality of the images we see on our screens and in the papers. Most of the people who turn up to support the EDL pay absolutely no attention to the stated aims of the organisation and act in a manner completely at odds with what is required of them a respectable group. Of course this enables the EDL to declare complete deniability for the behaviour of its supporters.

Scum.

lemongrove I can see how that might have been what Granny23 meant if she hadn't posted later about the EDL coming up from England across the border to spout their hatred. At one point she said she knew it was the EDL because it was plastered all over the two coaches the people arrived in, and in another post said the vast majority of them arrived by train or coaches hired from English firms. I could even understand that she might have confused the EDL with the National Front because its leader David MacDonald was there. The NF is a UK wide far right fascist political party and he's a local councillor now in Aberdeen. Maybe he is leading the activities of the far right groups in Scotland and that would give me concern, especially as he is a holocaust denier.

I actually agree with almost everything that Granny23 says about Scotland and immigrants. However, as far as I can see English far right groups were not involved in the protest in Alloa in March. It was down to Scottish fascists.

I think it's a waste of time posting Fullfacts.org info Wilma as it seems to me that some are not influenced by actual facts when forming opinions.

Granny23 has always made her position very clear but in a reasonable way with helpful information; however, this may be a report which could have been sensationalised by the media.
Any demonstrations by extremist groups of whatever persuasion would be frightening though.

mcem I don’t just agree with others who I think are’ like minded ‘ on forums but take each subject and each post as a separate thing, either agreeing or not agreeing according to what I honestly think.Therefore when I see somebody posting along the lines of ‘ well, I never thought I would agree with blah blah, haha ‘sort of thing, it fills me with amazement.I don’t have to like the poster to agree with them.

Jalima and Wilma am wondering if granny23 thought it was the EDL when in fact it was the SDL, and was it being wrongly reported that it was the EDL in the first place?
I see a lot of things quoted on GN, copied and pasted from who knows where that look very iffy.Hopefully granny23 will come back and tell us.

As far as GN is concerned lemon I have to agree with your last post!

^ but far less of the anti-eu/anti-immigrant/ pro brexit msm.^
But could that be because the Scottish press has other issues such as Scottish nationalism to discuss?

The vast majority of us simply do not want demonstrations of racism and bigotry on our doorsteps
That is good to hear, and likewise the vast majority of English people want none of this either.
Unfortunately, there are some people in Scotland who do wish to promote division and bigotry against the English.

The fact that you stated the EDL were the protesters also didn't raise an eyebrow with me because the EDL is always causing trouble by protesting somewhere. It's the principle activity of the organisation - that and supporting other far right nationalist groups.
I think most right-minded, decent people, whatever they voted in the referendums, would be horrified to see such as the EDL or SDL etc, marching in their towns, or to see people protesting at the refuge we offer to those who have suffered such as the Syrian refugees.
Most people would be wondering where the police were and hoping they would be coming to disperse such hate-filled thugs.

I did draw the comparison mcem and stand by it.
I don’t think you have ever agreed with a post of mine on GN on any subject at all, but am I bovvered? Nope.

granny23 is never ranty and has sincerely held beliefs.Even if I don’t share them.

I'm sorry Granny23, but I can't let your last post go unchallenged.

You started this thread by quoting an article that is 9 months old. If I had noticed the date this thread would have taken a different direction from the start because I would have asked you why you waited so long to raise the subject. The fact that you stated the EDL were the protesters also didn't raise an eyebrow with me because the EDL is always causing trouble by protesting somewhere. It's the principle activity of the organisation - that and supporting other far right nationalist groups. I admit I only had half an eye on this thread and was discussing the EU with Luckygirl - coincidentally on my way back to England from spending Christmas in Scotland with my family (I'm Scottish).

It was maggie who spotted the date and who then queried what you had posted because the articles in the links you provided did not show anything to prove the EDL were involved. After you replied at length to her query, other than your say so there was still nothing to show the EDL were at the protest and she left the thread because it looked to her like the purpose of this thread was to stir things up between the Scots and the English.

In the meantime I had been searching for information on the day of the protest and posted saying I could not find anything that backed up your claims the EDL was there, let alone two coaches full of its members. For some reason that post wasn't saved, so I posted again at 22.51 last night to say I wanted to back up maggie.

⚫Even on the link you posted for the thousand flowers blog there's nothing to say the EDL were at the protest.
This is the link again for you to check again

⚫The only media coverage of the protest I could find is here
Alloa Advertiser

There's a lot of photos in this article, but none of them show EDL flags, banners or t-shirts, etc.

⚫Two more media links with coverage -
brig - Stirling University student newspaper
The Herald - one photo as part of an article about a Edinburgh protest

⚫Even the police report to Alloa Community Council dated 28th March 2017 only makes a one line reference to the protest

SDL protest and counter protest on 11th March, passed without incident.
(You can download the full police report here)

There's no doubt that the SDL is active in Scotland, but there's nothing to show the EDL is involved. In 2010 the EDL protested 4 miles away in the next town to where I live. Since the Brexit referendum far right nationalism and racism have been given oxygen to encourage bigotry.

There's nothing wrong with nationalism, but as far as I can see, with this thread you have implied that the nationalism that you witnessed in Alloa was from outside Scotland. You've managed to cause division on here that doesn't exist and to dredge up the same opinions we've seen time and time again since the Scottish Independence Referendum in 2014.

Whether that was always your intention I can't say, but that's the result.

If only being Scottish meant one never had to experience being exposed to 'alien cultures' like bigotry, racism and sectarianism!
No guarantee of that just because we are Scots but far less of the anti-eu/anti-immigrant/ pro brexit msm.

In your push to demonize the OP you are adding 2+2 to make 7!
You are reading opinions that aren't there and at the same time disregarding the blatantly obvious.

Granny 23

" Nothing to do with England/ Scotland animosity, everything to do with bigots, racists, sectarians flaunting their poison in the midst of decent people. "

You've lost me again .

Your OP link was ALL about England/Scotland /Brexit/Nationalism. The whole article is written in a manner that gives credence to those who feel the English have a superior attitude and basically calling those who voted leave in the EU Referendum xenophobes who are destroying the Union. To quote your article :

" The confrontation between English and Scottish nationalism is not going to moderate or evaporate."

Your OP link was all about " England/ Scotland animosity ".

As for your comments , "understand MY upset when these Alien hateful cultures took over my town. " and " everything to do with bigots, racists, sectarians flaunting their poison in the midst of decent people." They were Scottish !

You drew that comparison lemon. I didn't.
All posters may choose to voice their arguments in their own way don't you think?
Many a time I've read posts which don't chime with your arguments or style but as I was admiring granny23 's rational and non-personal approach to debate, I won't follow that line of thought.

I agree with your last two paragraphs mcem
On the other hand paddyann seems the opposite, sadly.

I know exactly what granny23 is saying and as I posted up-thread I am glad to live in my tolerant corner of Scotland.
OO has applied for permission to march here and has been turned down.

This sectarianism is not a Scotland-wide phenomenon but it does exist unfortunately. The vast majority of us simply do not want demonstrations of racism and bigotry on our doorsteps - whatever their source.

I'd like to add that, in every debate we've had involving independence granny23 has been the voice of reasoned, calm and rational argument. No ranting, no personal insults, no xenophobia. Just well-researched, fact-based premises.

Of course the majority here will understandably disagree with her philosophy but it should be possible to acknowledge that her position is rationally put and does not involve personal insults.

* Jalima* I think you've got it! Perhaps others can read your thoughts and understand MY upset when these Alien hateful cultures took over my town. Nothing to do with England/ Scotland animosity, everything to do with bigots, racists, sectarians flaunting their poison in the midst of decent people.

Thank goodness, as some of my family are Protestant, some RC and some atheist.

Yes I agree Jalima we are lucky not to experience religious sectarianism and all the hatred that goes with it. A catholic friend of mine, married to a Scottish protestant has on occasions been on the receiving end when she's accompanied her husband back to his home turf, Glasgow from his relatives so much so she doesn't bother going up there anymore, why woud you? It's hard to believe it still goes on, nobody gives a monkey's down here what denomination anyone is, or isn't

You're right, I don't think we do understand such hatred

It is quite possible to be neither a separatist nor a British Nationalist. Most Scots support Scotland remaining in the United Kingdom. You could say we are unionists, but that tends sometimes to be interpreted as being supporters of the Conservative and Unionist Party. Many support the Liberal Democrats or the Labour Party. We can be patriotic and love our country without being nationalists of any sort.

Are the vile OO Scottish then? Not English.


And what goes on with Celtic and Rangers?

Is this a peculiarly Scottish (and Irish) thing?

Granny wasting your time,if they haven't lived here they wont/or dont want to understand the vile OO and its pretendy christianity...allied to the KKK.As far as most on here are concerned you and I are "seperatists" while they are "British Nationalists" one is wrong ...thats us ...the other is something they are fighting for with brexit and regaining a sovereignty they never lost and a worthy cause .Honestly ...give up ...they will never believe anything we say .Its all said to make the "english" look bad...however often we say we DONT HATE ENGLISH people , only WESTMINSTER they will still stick with the auld enemy thing rather than see the full picture.If countries as small and poor as Malta can gain independence and make a success of it why shouldn't we ...who have one of the richest countries in Europe ...not too wee ,too poor , or too stupid .A guid New Year when it comes and health ,happiness and prosperity for 2018

I was not aware Scotland marched? I thought Northern Ireland were the only nation to have a silly ‘marching season’?!

Rosie The situation regarding the housing and support provided for the Syrian Refugees was this. No, Zero, Zilch houses were 'given' to refugees from the stock of Council Houses. Therefore, no local resident had to wait longer on the Housing List than they would have done without the Refugees. All the funding in respect of the refugees came direct from the UK government to the local Council. There was no extra expense falling on the Council Tax payers or Council reserves. This funding was used to renovate and upgrade old Council houses which were substandard and therefore unavailable to those on the Housing List and a few brand new private houses which the Developer could not sell, were purchased at a discount again using the funds provided. As a result the Council's Housing stock has increased permanently. If/when the Syrians move on or are able to return to Syria these houses will be available to families on the waiting list.

I would call this a win/win situation, but those with a particular far right agenda, have distorted the facts to create discord and animosity.

You also ask what the Orange Walk has to do with anything. From my standpoint it is another example of the relative peace and harmony of my local community being disrupted by people from 'elsewhere' whether that be the West of Scotland, NI, or England. There is little or no support for the Orange Lodge here and I can only guess at the motives of the hierarchy for choosing Alloa as the setting for this year's BIG March which has never been held hereabouts before. Press estimates of attendance of attendance varied from 8,000 to 11,000 marchers, including 60+ flute or accordian bands. We know where they came from because each band has its Lodge name on the big bass drum. As an aside shopkeepers in the town centre lost two days trading as a result of the shutdowns/road closures for these two events. It had been said that at least the pubs and offies would do a roaring trade but in the event they mainly closed for the day as their regular punters could not get to them.