Gransnet forums

News & politics

What next?

(513 Posts)
ayse Tue 15-Jan-19 20:46:40

Where is the vote in the Commons going to take us next. Whether remainder or leaver, this is a disgraceful shambles!

Bridgeit Tue 15-Jan-19 20:57:37

Yes it is, who knows how it will all end!

EllanVannin Tue 15-Jan-19 21:07:28

There should never have been a vote in the first place. We've always been okay in the EU especially as it's been they who've funded a lot of projects in this country.

Labaik Tue 15-Jan-19 21:09:52

I have been wondering tonight if those who have campaigned to leave the EU [and voted for it] are proud of what they've brought this country to sad ...

dragonfly46 Tue 15-Jan-19 21:14:47

Unfortunately Labaik the ones I know are proud of what they have done!

Bridgeit Tue 15-Jan-19 21:19:57

I don’t think they care,
I feel sad for the younger generations.

winterwhite Tue 15-Jan-19 21:26:09

Surely by any standard the prime minister should resign? How can she retain a shred of authority? Esp after delaying the vote for a month.
Then revoke Article 50 and start again.

Sarahmob Tue 15-Jan-19 21:50:46

I don’t understand how we can revoke Article 50 and then start again. Democracy says we should be leaving (I voted remain incidentally). What worries me is that it’s a total shambles and we must be a laughing stock throughout Europe. Maybe a coalition govt would be the best way forward.

Davidhs Tue 15-Jan-19 21:52:13

TM accepted the poison chalice to solve Brexit and will see it through to the end and so she should, anyone else, Tory or Labour would face the same problem, there is no majority for anything - at present.
It seems “no deal” is off the agend nobody credible wants it, but the general public being interviewed are saying “ sod the EU, leave” maybe the media is biased maybe not, but a second vote that says leave is not what parliament wants.

Davidhs Tue 15-Jan-19 22:02:39

The EU are not going to allow Article 50 to be revoked unilaterally in that way, they have said that a UK parliamentary vote could revoke it permanently. They are not going to change their red lines on freedom of movement etc, that would risk their core values, they would rather us leave than risk the EU.

eazybee Tue 15-Jan-19 22:14:07

The people who have created much of this chaos are the remain campaigners who refused to accept the result of a democratic vote, and have used every means in their power to thwart and destroy that result.
This has been compounded by Theresa May's attempt to appease an implacable EU, which is determined we shall not leave.

paddyann Tue 15-Jan-19 22:19:20

Lot of nonsense about the EU on here.We've done very well out of it since we joined.I dont understand the people in areas where they've had masses of EU funding voting to they REALLY think the UK government will make up the difference in their finances? Deluded !

PECS Tue 15-Jan-19 22:20:45

Just come back from watching a very moving Danish anti- war film: Land of Mine. Brought home how we should all be looking for our common humanity..not what divides us. Difficult & uncertain times to come for sure.

ayse Tue 15-Jan-19 22:25:50

Seems to me that both sides have rejected May’s deal, not just the remainders. Very few have proved willing to accept the deal ie the vote. I for one think that crashing out could result in civil unrest as food prices rise dramatically, thus the army is on standby! I may be accused of scaremongering and a worse case scenario but there are so many uncertainties with just leaving.

MaizieD Tue 15-Jan-19 22:29:11

The people who have created much of this chaos are the remain campaigners who refused to accept the result of a democratic vote, and have used every means in their power to thwart and destroy that result.

Remain campaigners had absolutely no part in the UK-EU negotiations and Remain voices were not listened to at all by May and the government. That being so, I'm completely at a loss to understand how they've managed to 'destroy' your lovely Brexit. Was it the weekly gatherings around the Remain cauldron weaving spells and muttering curses on Brexit? Or the mass thought transference sessions which influenced the Brexit Ministers and May to act like complete imbeciles (I have to say, those worked rather well, didn't they wink ).

One thing which is absolutely certain, and to try to remove it would be an outrage, is that in a democracy one has an absolute right to lawfully oppose anything which one wants to oppose. Which is what Remainers have done.

GabriellaG54 Tue 15-Jan-19 22:31:23

Would Corbyn take hold of the poisoned chalice now he has the chance, or us that a step too far for him?
After all, he'd have to walk the walk after the the promises he's made.
He'll need plenty of good, trustworthy foot soldiers around him and get things moving pretty quickly to satisfy his followers.
What's the betting that, with Labour in the hot seat, anything that goes awry will be blamed on the mess Conservatives left. Thus, it will be years before any start is made on the NHS, railways, Police, immigration, housing, benefits and the rest.
A mountain to climb but has he got the expertise and energy to get to the top?

GabriellaG54 Tue 15-Jan-19 22:33:15

*is, not us.

MaizieD Tue 15-Jan-19 22:36:31

I may be accused of scaremongering

Blimey, ayse! You're well behind!

Crashing out without a deal has been mentioned from time to time for at least the last 6 months on this forum. We even had a thread about stockpiling.

Responses were predictable...

Yes, you will be accused of scaremongering grin

MaizieD Tue 15-Jan-19 22:40:04

Corbyn won't win the vote of no confidence. There will be no general election.

I predict that May will ask for an A50 extension, though the EU might not be minded to grant it unless for a GE or a People's Vote.

Anja Tue 15-Jan-19 22:58:11

I doubt anyone truly visualised this total chaos. I’m mindful of the allegedly Chinese curse ‘may you live in interesting times!’

Labaik Tue 15-Jan-19 23:49:04

I think people who foresaw the problem about the Irish border saw it coming, but no one seemed to be listening...

ayse Wed 16-Jan-19 00:22:52

MaizieD, I don’t very often get too involved in political debate as they can be quite challenging. However, Europe as a whole is becoming a simmering pot of resentment. This does not bode well for the future.hmm

absent Wed 16-Jan-19 00:46:46

Was it really a democratic vote? Some didn't vote and some voted remain – so those, in total, didn't choose change to the status quo. Fewer than this total voted to leave. Quite apart from the fact that the referendum was a stupid idea in the first place, as well as being ill-informed, people were blatantly lied to.

Lyndiloo Wed 16-Jan-19 04:16:19

We voted to leave the EU. We live in a democratic country. So we have to leave! Deal or no deal!
This 'deal' that Teresa May put forward, for many reasons, was not acceptable. And would cost us 39 Billion pounds!
It looks like the EU will not consider any other deal. "This is the only deal." The 'only deal' doesn't sound like a 'good deal' to me!
Whatever happens now, politically, is all 'up in the air'. Time will tell.
I think that we should just go for a 'no deal', and walk away. We do have other things on the table. 70 trade deal offers, world-wide. And Japan has asked us to join their 'common market' along with Australia, New Zealand and Canada. We never get to hear of these positive aspects from the BBC or other media - it's all just gloom and doom.
We'll be OK. We might have to face a couple of hard years, but in the end it will be preferable, for us, as a country to be out of the EU. We'll be better off. We'll have our sovereignty back, our own laws, control our own borders.
I don't want the UK to be a small state in a Federal Europe. I don't want a German controlled European Army (sends shivers down my spine!)
Back in 1972, we joined the 'Common Market', not expecting that it would balloon into an institution that controls almost every aspect of our lives.
And it is a corrupt organisation. Non-elected leaders, no accounts audited since 2013, money wasted hand-over-fist - not least by the trek (for 1 week) by all EMPs, plus staff, from Brussels to Strassborg, every month. (Why?)
No! We should get out. That's what we voted for.
And, for the sake of democracy, all 'Remainers' and 'Brexiteers' should now come together, and make sure that our hard-won and treasured Democracy is still a force in this great country of ours.

ayse Wed 16-Jan-19 06:04:27

We don’t “have to leave”! This is a democratic country so we can change our minds. We could have another “advisory’ referendum! The whole process is such a mess and personally I would prefer to remain. I just wish that those that apparently know better would get on with something positive and find a consensus.
It’s about time we sorted the NHS, housing, education and social care with some long term planning. Not much hope of that in foreseeable future, meanwhile the poorest in our very wealthy society are suffering. It’s a disgraceful state to be in.

Davidhs Wed 16-Jan-19 07:14:08

We keep hearing about the UKs negotiating position, we do not have a negotiating position at all, the EU has already said no more talk. Every deal comes to a point where you get to a “take it or leave it” position, we have reached that point.
Clearly any “soft brexit” involving a customs union is within the terms of TMs deal, a Norway style deal by any other name but we are not Norway. We have a vastly different economy and EFTA regulation is not going to be easy.
Will the Tories and Labour agree on a soft brexit option, it’s hard to see how, it’s not in their nature to cooperate and in any case a soft brexit is not going to be popular with voters.

mcem Wed 16-Jan-19 07:36:48

The umpteenth reiteration of ill-informed nonsense lindilou.
Our laws and our borders, easy trade deals, great country - all thoroughly discredited.
Leave cloud cuckoo land and come to terms with what needs to be done to ensure that our young people enjoy the benefits that our generation had.

lemongrove Wed 16-Jan-19 08:09:32

I don’t blame any Remainers or the EU for this mess, it’s squarely at the feet of the MP’s in Westminster.Mostly, they are not prepared to accept the result of the referendum even though it was voted for at the time, and article 50 was also voted for, to trigger us leaving the EU.They are arrogant and self serving and shouldn’t be surprised if half of the elctorate never vote again.I expect T May will win the confidence vote, but think she should stand down now, after doing all she can, and let someone else in her Party take over.

Luckygirl Wed 16-Jan-19 08:30:43

As I have said many times, there are communities in the UK where a leave vote made a lot of sense. Not all people who voted to leave are immoral and racist.

Mrs May says that she is now going to "reach out" to other parties - a little late in the day, in my view. Negotiating something as important as this should always have been a cross-party process, especially as her party are so divided on the issue.

travelsafar Wed 16-Jan-19 08:33:59

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive!" springs to mind !!!!

Urmstongran Wed 16-Jan-19 08:40:27

The government is split, the cabinet can’t agree, divisions 50/50 throughout parliament, many families voted differently, friends too and on forums.
The vote was to Leave the EU.
Mrs. May will ensure we come out on 29 March. She won’t step down and Corbyn won’t oust her.
Those who voted Leave are hopeful and those who voted Remain are fuming.

Coconut Wed 16-Jan-19 09:39:51

We have joined a growing list of countries now with embarrassing leaders ! Shambolic is an understatement.

GrannyIris5 Wed 16-Jan-19 09:42:11

Well said Lyndiloo. Quite agree

SunnySusie Wed 16-Jan-19 09:45:37

The 2016 referendum was advisory. 37% of the people eligible to vote chose Leave (nearly 13m didnt vote). There was very little information available about what any of the options actually meant. How many of us in real life make decisions with very few facts or information and then stick to them no matter what. If we do is it a good thing?

jenpax Wed 16-Jan-19 09:45:57

We need to revoke Article 50 and this is legally allowed I voted remain and am still a remainer. I do not agree that we need to forge a head regardless! The majority of the population are supporting a second vote (62%) and this is across all regions even the leave supporting hot beds. We must have a second referendum with (this time) all the facts on the table and I am praying that the remain camp will win this time around 🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺

Lewie Wed 16-Jan-19 09:49:43

Great post, Lyndiloo

CarlyD7 Wed 16-Jan-19 09:50:21

For those people who say we HAVE to Leave because of the vote in 2016 - I would say it's like a marriage where one of the spouses declares they want a divorce. A year or so on, they're still picking over the details, realising how much better off they were with their spouse and decide to call the divorce off and work on creating a better marriage (more than half of divorces started are called off). We are the 6th richest economy in the world - haven't done THAT badly being in the EU?

Granpe Wed 16-Jan-19 09:52:50

Not sure if I am allowed to do this - so Gransnet please delete if that is the case.........I have just set up a FB page Grannies Against Brexit. I feel I can't just sit and do nothing. If you are interested please Like and follow my page Grannies Against Brexit

Kernowflock Wed 16-Jan-19 09:54:08

I have grave concerns regarding the referendum. I agree, we should take the people's voice. But, the referendum was poorly administered which led to blatant lies and misinformation. I know two people who voted Brexit and would again. I know of over 50 who would not vote Brexit again. I know of no remainders who would now vote leave. So what went wrong.
The government should have laid out clearly two options, debated and agreed in the house. Information should then have been published which the House agreed, listing what was on offer. As it was the vote was on subjective information that was interpreted in many ways.
We are now in chaos with everyone saying their interpretation is correct! We need The House to agree what is on offer and then go back to the people. Brexiters can't complain as if indeed the people want to leave then the country will vote that way. Remainers can't complain if the second vote is to leave as the subjectivity and misinformation will not be valid arguments against accepting the vote. Then the country can get on with what we need to do.

We should also remember there was a small majority. Almost half the country disagreed. So there was never a 'clear mandate' and division was always guaranteed.
And all this because Cameron wanted to silence dissent in his party 😕

Howcome Wed 16-Jan-19 09:56:54

I don’t want to rehash all the old arguments - whatever side of the line you are in this is embarrassing and who knows where we go next We had to storm off heads held high or remain and join in with Europe neither are now possible. TM was a remainer so her Brexit was always going to be a bit soft. Where is Nigel and Boris now?? I’d have more respect if they took up the reigns and marched us out.
What a mess and not a leader in sight- I expected a battle for hearts and minds we could unite behind - whatever our view- instead we have the worst of all worlds. It will be OK though, whatever. It’s very embarrassing as a Nation, but we do have options either way and no one ever died of a bit of international embarrassment!!

Ginny42 Wed 16-Jan-19 09:58:20

The situation we now find ourselves in was entirely predictable as soon as the result of the referendum was declared. As I see it, the problem has arisen because the majority vote to leave WAS too close and that inevitably means that all those thousands of people who wished to remain in the EU feel disenfranchised.

Some of us envisaged the current impasse we now find ourselves in at that time. Not happy that I was correct.

GabriellaG54 Wed 16-Jan-19 09:59:59

Well said Lyndiloo 👏

ElaineRI55 Wed 16-Jan-19 10:01:00

The vast majority of folk voted with integrity and for what they believed would give the best future for the UK.
Unfortunately, a lot of lies and misinformation was peddled by Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage et al.
Immigration - we did have powers to restrict immigration for 7 years from new members and also to remove immigrants if they were not financially able to support themselves after 3 months. The UK gov chose not to use these powers!
Economy - we give a tiny fraction of our annual spend to EU and have absolutely had our money's worth.
Rules - again, a small % of our rules are made via EU. These have been made with UK as an equal partner at the table. many are about workers' rights,fairness, and environmental protection.. if we want any trade with EU in future, we will need to adhere to many of the rules, but without any say.
I was watching EU parliament this morning debating last night's UK vote defeating May's deal.
The overwhelming response is concern for the impact on UK ( and EU) citizens in the event of no-deal/bad deal. They are also open to UK staying in EU. There isn't and never has been any impression of a desire on the part of EU to be obstructive or impose penalties on UK.
Finally - to say we must leave as the people voted to leave and to change our minds would be undemocratic is just not the case. If a group of friends chose a holiday destination based on a glossy brochure and then found out the brochure didn't reflect the reality and the hotel was half-built, dirty and responsible for many cases of food-poisoning, who in their right mind would say " We voted for that hotel, it would be wrong and undemocratic to change our minds.We're going to have to go anyway, no matter the risks"?

mittenma Wed 16-Jan-19 10:01:07

At the time of the referendum, the only thing we thought we knew was what the public was told, some of which turned out to be a load of lies! I assume there will be some who have changed their minds since it has became a lot clearer as to what we would be letting ourselves in for in leaving Europe. (I voted remain and very glad I did!)

CarlyD7 Wed 16-Jan-19 10:01:42

No-one in the Tory party wants May's job just yet - it's a poisoned chalice. They will wait until we're out, then the next PM can blame anything that goes wrong on Mrs May. Scheming cowards, the lot of them.

spabbygirl Wed 16-Jan-19 10:02:04

the leave campaign broke the law in campaigning so the result should be invalid. Labour would make a far better job of negotiating a future cos with May (or should she be known as dismay?) loudly shouting about red lines it didn't leave much open to negotiating.

Lazigirl Wed 16-Jan-19 10:02:35

Leavers wanted our Government to "take back control". If this is what taking back control looks like it doesn't bode well for the future, particularly in a much diminished economy.

ElaineRI55 Wed 16-Jan-19 10:03:35

Sorry - last sentence meant to be "We're going to have to go anyway, no matter the risks"

matson Wed 16-Jan-19 10:04:36

We should respect peoples democratic right to vote how they decide, no need for recriminations here, perhaps just opinions on how the problem can be solved.

starbox Wed 16-Jan-19 10:06:23

Waiting with bated breath...HOPING for a no-deal Brexit, don't believe all the doom and gloom at all, just trying to scare the more credulous!

123coco Wed 16-Jan-19 10:06:28

For those people saying people voted and it’s democracy and that has to be upheld, the point about the democracy is that you can change your mind . that’s why it’s different to a dictatorship.!!! It’s almost 3 years since the last referendum, when practically nothing else has got done in the country, so why can’t people have a chance to rethink ?

123coco Wed 16-Jan-19 10:08:12

Well said. And it’s been a long time now since the referendum and things have changed. I’m sick to death of hearing about the will of the people.

Annakist Wed 16-Jan-19 10:08:32

If there were another referendum, and the result was 48/52, again, but this time a vote to remain, would the those who voted to stay in regard it as a definitive result, this time? (FWIW, I voted remain.) I'm just wondering about perspective regarding one's vote and views.

123coco Wed 16-Jan-19 10:09:43

We were only given a binary choice in the referendum i.e. stay or leave we didn’t voyte for any of this. How many people really understood about the Irish border complications and customs union et cetera et cetera

Redgran18 Wed 16-Jan-19 10:10:36

The only authority which can revoke Article 50 is the British Parliament. Europe has nothing to do with it at all. Europe only becomes involved if parliament wants to change/ move the date ie put it back.

Brigidsdaughter Wed 16-Jan-19 10:15:21

We should have Another referendum with the truth this time. And maybe young people will get off their moany seats and vote. Many did but as I discovered working for electoral services, the older the person, the more they registered and the younger had to be chased and chased. A graph would show this.

Barnet Wed 16-Jan-19 10:15:57

Can I just deal with your points one by one.

Whatever deal is presented, we'd have to pay billions. Leave said we'd get back £350 million a WEEK for the NHS. That turned out to be a lie.

''Go for no deal and walk away''. Will you be happy to see the motorway from Dover turned into a lorry park for 25 miles, for goods to rot in lorries? For your medication to be non-existent because pharmacists can't get any from abroad?
Any trade deals with the Far East, Australasia etc are totally impractical. Do you want to see trade deals with Trump which bring chlorine rinsed chicken and hormone ridden beef to the UK, not to mention no checks on food hygiene?

''We might have to face a couple of hard years''. No deal is like falling into an abyss. Nobody knows how long it will take to recover. If anyone here remembers hardships during the war, I imagine this would be a LOT worse.

''I don't want the UK to be a small state in a Federal Europe.'' The EU has united Europe for 70 years and we need them more than they need us. Grants to impoverished areas like Cornwall and South Wales have been given in EU subsidies, along with subsidies for farmers and fishermen. All that will now be lost, resulting in the economy plummeting further. Do you want to go back to the Empire mentality when we've not had an Empire for over 50 years?

The EU is ''corrupt''. As is this government. Full of ex-businessmen and women who think they can run the UK like the companies they once bossed about. May granting absolution to 2 sex pest MP's (Charlie Elphicke & Andrew Griffiths) so they can vote in her favour and many other examples.
Corrupt? I'll say.

''Money wasted by the EU''. No worse than MP's claiming expenses for moat cleaning, duck houses, car journeys of less than a mile, bathplugs, the use of porn channels etc.

I just don't understand the mentality of people who seemingly want to push the UK and its people off the metaphorical cliff's edge.

dragonfly46 Wed 16-Jan-19 10:16:01

Lyndiloo I think you are being very optimistic if you think the ramifications of this will only last a couple of years. Even the Brexiteer say it will take a generation.

And can somebody tell me what 'getting our Sovereignty back' actually means?

hippie Wed 16-Jan-19 10:20:07

All I can say is MPs have treated Theresa May disgracefully and should be ashamed. I didn't vote leave and those who did probably didn't realise what it involved. United we stand divided we fall...…...history repeating itself time and time again.

Pammie1 Wed 16-Jan-19 10:22:16

I believe democracy is a precious thing and if we are given a vote we should use it. That said, I don’t think the public should ever have been given this referendum, for reasons which were made abundantly clear by the result - a gut reaction taken with no real understanding of the convoluted issues involved. I voted remain for several reasons, not the least of which was because I felt I didn’t have enough information to be able to vote leave - the campaigning on both sides seemed chaotic and there was very little in the way of factual information amongst the political rhetoric and infighting. I suspect many people did the same and I also suspect that many who voted leave did so as a knee jerk reaction to the much publicised excesses and overblown powers of the EU without giving much thought to what we would actually lose. Over the years since the vote I feel I have learned a lot of facts which should have been at my fingertips at the time of the vote and I think a lot of people must feel the same. Put simply, I don’t think the original vote served democracy very well. It took place in a chaotic and hostile atmosphere and with no attempt to educate the public in what either outcome would actually mean, and since the vote, both leavers and remainers have had time to absorb the enormity of what we have done. So at the risk of bringing down the wrath of Gransnetters on my head, I think democracy would be better served if we could revoke article 50 and start again. We should be demanding factual information, not partisan rhetoric, and perhaps then we could all vote with a better understanding of the consequences - be it remain or leave.

Caro57 Wed 16-Jan-19 10:22:39

There was a democratic vote. It’s result should be respected by all and, as this is a national rather than political matter, should be negotiated by a cross party group.

Nannapat1 Wed 16-Jan-19 10:23:40

Theresa May certainly was handed a poisoned chalice and surely nobody thinks that she sat down and actually drafted the Brexit deal all by herself! Actually, before the referendum, she campaigned to remain in the EU...

Orelse Wed 16-Jan-19 10:25:33

Well said lindiloo.
I have had variousdealing with EU and Brussels over the years and " jobs for the boys " and they have tried their best to scupper the British exit , they want to rule the whole of Europe which is not what we originally signed up for . We have been taken advantage of and not respected- they didn't believe we would withdraw so did nothing about improving the return of our financial contributions or listened to our issues We have been treated like a cash cow !


Schoey Wed 16-Jan-19 10:26:31

The main thing that annoys me is politician career building using the situation and in so doing are damaging our country. Why are we letting them do this

justwokeup Wed 16-Jan-19 10:27:00

If, in my job, we don't get on and do what's decided there would be repercussions accompanied by comments of 'is the tail wagging the dog?' and 'we decide it, you make it happen'. (Any more admin people out there? grin) Aren't MPs supposed to carry out the wishes of the people they represent? Imo MPs are glorified administrators but, because being an MP is such a lucrative career, they have an elevated sense of their own importance. I guess they haven't had so much to do while the EU parliament was sorting everything out for them, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't get on with it now. We surely have enough brains in Westminster to stop bickering, get on with their well-paid jobs, and find a proper solution.

With regard to the Prime Minister there surely isn't a single MP, whatever the party, who wants her job at the moment, so the vote of no confidence is another red herring.

I have heard more than one person say they voted to remain but, if there was a second vote, they would vote to leave as democracy is more important to them. I remember, as many of us surely do, this country before EU, when we voted to join a Common Market, as did other EU countries. I don't remember a vote since, or a single letter (think bank accounts) changing the T&C since that vote. Sadly, like many have said, I'm unlikely to vote again, for the first time ever, for any of our so-called representatives from any party. My personal vote of no confidence. I think the suffragettes have been betrayed by career politicians.

Lily65 Wed 16-Jan-19 10:29:50

I don't understand what sovereignty is.

Miamax5 Wed 16-Jan-19 10:35:41

Lyndiloo unfortunately I think you’ll find that a lot of the legislation you object to comes from our government and not the EU. So I’m not sure that having ‘our sovereignty’ will improve anything!

Bowler2 Wed 16-Jan-19 10:37:56

I totally agree with everything Lyndiloo says. I voted not to join the Common Market in 1972, I could forsee some of what it evolved to become. The EU have always been biased against the UK. Mrs Thatcher was the only one strong enough to stand up to them, Mrs May is too weak. She should have gone to the negotiation tables telling them what WE wanted if they wanted their 38 million! And if those poor deluded remainders want another vote, can we also have another vote on the 1972 decision to join??

Jabberwok Wed 16-Jan-19 10:38:05

Worse than the war years?!!!!! You have to be joking!! Nothing is worse than being bombed, our young men killed in droves, merchant ships being sunk daily with enormous loss of goods and men, battle ships and aeroplanes being blown out of the sky and sea, many many children deprived of their fathers, many many babies born without fathers, many many young women widowed and expected to manage with pittance pensions, enormous shortages both during and particularly after the war, the very real fear of invasion. Most frightening of all though was the fear of losing the war and being overwhelmed by Germany. Looking at the continent and the horrors of the occupied countries, it was a very real fear! I would suggest that you have little or no knowledge of the war, because believe you me NOTHING that is being experienced today or in the future comes anywhere close to being as awful as those war/post war years!

anniesgrannie Wed 16-Jan-19 10:38:40

Lyndiloo Well said

Frannytoo Wed 16-Jan-19 10:38:53

How can Jeremy Corbyn talk about the EU being flexible and open to fresh negotiations. How deluded can one get.

Bowler2 Wed 16-Jan-19 10:39:03

Sorry meant remainders, finger slipped!

25Avalon Wed 16-Jan-19 10:39:17

Lyndiloo you are so right. I couldn't agree more. The BBC just promote every negative they can find and do not give us impartial news. I met someone who was so afraid they were stockpiling food! Most of our trade is not with Europe anyway and are they really going to stop trading with us? I don't think so. It all reminds me of the fear of the millennium bug in 1999 that all our computers would crash the following year. They didn't.

Grampie Wed 16-Jan-19 10:39:43

It's a Kabuki Show.

With TC asking for a vote of no confidence and JC obliged just before the final curtain.

More today on another meaningless vote.

Thankfully we have a date enshrined in law to oblige us to leave in accordance with the results of the Referendum.

Helen369 Wed 16-Jan-19 10:40:13

I’m with Lyndiloo 100%. The world does not begin and end with Europe, we will find a new way in time if everyone just stops bellyaching and work together to deliver what was voted for. Whatever happened to the British sense of FairPlay? You play a game, you lose, you move on.

Bowler2 Wed 16-Jan-19 10:40:50

Again apologies, it's this predictive text.

Barmeyoldbat Wed 16-Jan-19 10:41:43

Load of rubbish Lindylou. We have gained a great deal from being in the EU and we should allow our young people to have the same benefits we have received. Whats the choice? crash out and go in with mad man Trump and all his mad ideas. I think there will be no general election and May will get a 2 year extension. In the meantime we will blunder on with no thing getting done with about home affairs and money being wasted.

karinu Wed 16-Jan-19 10:42:30

Totally agree with you, ayse. It is possible to revoke Article
50, but can you imagine this or any other government of ours taking that step? They have no idea how to proceed
and only think along party lines and what they can get out of this.
I currently still live in France as our house is not selling.
The uncertainty of the last few years has affected people
badly. If we leave without a deal , we may no longer have health cover etc etc but nobody knows.
A complete disgrace and I feel embarrassed to be British -

pashkaro Wed 16-Jan-19 10:45:44

Thank you Lyndiloo for expressing so well what i and countless others have been thinking for the last few years!

glammagran Wed 16-Jan-19 10:52:51

Lindyloo agree entirely with you. Who will foot Jean Claude Junckers Armagnac bill if we leave? grin

ReadyMeals Wed 16-Jan-19 10:53:38

The popcorn makers are flying off the shelves...

newgran2019 Wed 16-Jan-19 10:53:44

Whether the EU is bad or good (and I think it could be seen as both), I doubt very much that in this globalized world, controlled largely by big corporations, we will ever really now have true 'sovereignty' (whatever that means) or be fully able to control our own borders, etc.

tickingbird Wed 16-Jan-19 10:55:12

People didn’t vote leave just because of lower wages. People voted out for a myriad of reasons. All this trouble began when the poorer eastern bloc countries were allowed in. They’ve flooded into this country and if you saw how some people are having to live in areas of such high concentration of these immigrants you’d vote leave too. A friend of mine finally paid of her mortgage on a very modest home and now lives in a rubbish dump. Surrounded by the new arrivals crammed into houses and then moving into every house that becomes vacant. The rubbish on the road and pavement has to be seen to be believed. She has seen rats on the pavement. As for the Polish Roma - well i doubt very much you’d want to live near them. Get down off your high horses and spare a thought fir decent people whose communities have been wrecked.

mabon1 Wed 16-Jan-19 10:55:30

The EU have told us that there is not another deal, this is it,
therefore Mr Corbyn and his crew won't make an iota of difference. I admit to being a remainer but respect the decision of the majority.

Grandange Wed 16-Jan-19 11:01:55

Who can we possibly vote for at the next election?

GabriellaG54 Wed 16-Jan-19 11:03:19

the benefits we have received?
An ailing NHS, cutbacks in services, many companies owned by foreign conglomerates, railways off track, schools having to ask parents to buy books pencils etc, crumbling roads, broken borders, dirty hospitals, poor policing...?
All great eh and fit to pass on to our children?
You must be joking.

Kim19 Wed 16-Jan-19 11:04:35

Schoey, please tell me, in practical terms, how we stop this? I only have one vote at MPs whim. Seems inadequate and I'm frustrated but confess to feeling unequipped to turn the situation around. I have a looney solution but, unfortunately, it can't happen.

Mamar2 Wed 16-Jan-19 11:05:16

Very heated debate this morning. I just wonder how many people understood what they were actually voting for when they voted leave or stay?

sandelf Wed 16-Jan-19 11:09:49

Still hoping we can come eventually to a looser customs and co-operation treaty. This shouting is all part of the negotiation. Turn on a music station and look away. Or BBC World Service - this fuss is just one thing going on in a quite big world.

ShellyBee Wed 16-Jan-19 11:11:15

Lyndiloo I agree with you entirely. The EC is not the trading organisation I voted for back in 1975, it has grown exponentially and to my mind into an inefficient and autocratic organisation. How can 27/28 different countries easily reach an agreement on anything? And being in the eurozone seems to have destroyed countries such as Greece. Since the Brexit vote, our politicians have created a huge mess, and I’m sure that any other PM of the past could have made better progress in negotiations with the EU.

Nannan2 Wed 16-Jan-19 11:12:02

For all who remember(i was a child) when we joined it was called 'The Common Market'-now all the hype is European union- but before we were part of it UK survived perfectly ok- even won a war or two- so i wouldnt worry too much.As for a coalition gov sarahmob-i thought thats EXACTLY what we had voted in last time?But still all of a sudden it was a CONSERVATIVE in PM's seat?-Why couldnt all 3 major parties had a turn each?And i can remember how it was last time they let a lady have a turn,so what made them think it would be any better this time round?grinAt least maggie thatcher werent a nervy woman who constantly looks "like a rabbit caught in the headlights",like Mrs may does.Fact is,ALL politicians promise all this& that then do beggar all once they get in!angry

GabriellaG54 Wed 16-Jan-19 11:13:11

I agree with much of your comment however, there are notable exceptions.
About 14 miles from my home, just outside Guildford on the A286, a couple of lads (Romanian/Polish? not sure) started a car washing business by the roadside with buckets and cloths.
It's expanded to employ many more staff, proper signage, professional hoses etc and they do a fantastic job inside and out, much better than I've had elsewhere.
It's hard graft and determination that got them there, in all weathers and there is usually a queue a mile long.

Kim19 Wed 16-Jan-19 11:13:38

M2, I do believe I understood enough (by NO MEANS all) of the goings-on of the EU to make my decision. As for the silly bus. Who on earth believed what it said? I remember immediately thinking "that'll be right!" I guess we all had different reasons for the way we voted and not one of them is less important to us than anyone else. I think the best human attribute would be an open mind and those who have been personally convicted that they made the wrong decision have my utmost respect.

GabriellaG54 Wed 16-Jan-19 11:16:55

Would YOU give money to a business or charity which refused to have it's accounts audited, because that's what is happening when we hand over billions to the EU.
A gravy train if ever there was one.

Nanny41 Wed 16-Jan-19 11:19:31

What a mess! I sometimes feel ashamed of this mess being an ex pat, but then here is Sweden we havent had a Government for four months, they are still debating, wherever I am its a mess, so I wont say anything!

Chipski Wed 16-Jan-19 11:19:56

EllanVannin the EU don't have any money of their own. Money that we get from the EU is our own money (UK taxpayers). They give us back approximately 65% and keep the rest. They also tell us how to spend the 65% that they return to us.

MawBroon Wed 16-Jan-19 11:20:18

have it's accounts

Proofreading GabriellaG?

Predictive texting!

Barmeyoldbat Wed 16-Jan-19 11:20:31

All then failures you listed GG are not the fault of the EU but this government.

Margs Wed 16-Jan-19 11:22:13

Just what are all these "options" that have popped up since Xmas? They're breeding like maggots on a corpse. None of them seem simple, make sense, or are remotely connected to the ordinary lives of ordinary people.

I thought Westminster was supposed to represent the electorate but it's turned into almost a private cosy bubble (and a bloody lucrative one!) for career politicians who only choose to notice that Mr & Mrs Joe Public exist when it's election time and they want to save their well paid arses. Even then we only become a Necessary Evil.

I wish the whole lot would be abducted by aliens......

mokryna Wed 16-Jan-19 11:22:44

Very well said Barnet

By the way before joining the EU I think I remember there were restrictions on how much holiday could be took money out of the country, will this come back into force?