Gransnet forums

News & politics

Fraudulent referendum

(243 Posts)
varian Fri 01-Feb-19 15:22:22

Last December, it was reported that- the “corrupt and illegal practices” of the Vote Leave campaign in the 2016 referendum undermine the validity of the decision to leave the EU, the high court has been told.

Relying on findings made by the Electoral Commission about overspending by the pro-Brexit campaign, British people living in Europe have launched a legal case arguing the referendum result should in effect be set aside.

“Breaches of spending rules are serious offences that vitiate the referendum result,” Jessica Simor QC, for the claimants, told the court. “Corruption and illegality in the course of an election or referendum must have a consequence. Corruption and illegal practices undermine the rule of law and democracy.”

There was significant overspending, data breaches and possibly Russian involvement in the referendum, she said. “The electorate can no longer be expected to respect the result.”

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/07/corrupt-vote-leave-campaign-undermines-brexit-vote-court-told

Today we learn that the information commissioner has launched an audit into Leave.EU and the insurance company owned by the campaign’s key financial backer, Arron Banks, after fining the organisations a total of £120,000 for data protection violations during the EU referendum campaign

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/01/leave-eu-arron-banks-insurance-company-fined-data-breaches-information-commissioner-audit

Why has this taken so long to investigate ? That fraudulent referendum should be declared invalid and Article 50 should immediately be revoked.

EllanVannin Fri 01-Feb-19 15:35:54

I've always thought that the " Leaving " vote had shades of jiggery-pokery.

NotSpaghetti Fri 01-Feb-19 15:43:18

Why has this taken so long to investigate?
Because no one dare touch it.
😟

humptydumpty Fri 01-Feb-19 15:46:18

Sending out a horrific message: as long as you get the result you want, you can do what you want, because the result will still be valid.

Nonnie Fri 01-Feb-19 16:14:51

On the tenth anniversary there will be a book and documentaries showing all the evidence of the corruption and lies. By then it will all be too late as there is currently no political will to push this.

I agree humpty rotten world we now live in.

varian Fri 01-Feb-19 16:55:29

The campaign group called "Led By Donkeys", "because if you live in Britain you feel we are a nation of lions led by donkeys", has been putting up posters showing quotations of statements by prominent leave campaigners before the referendum.

"This particular idea - to skewer the hypocrisy of Brexiteers on huge public billboards - has turned into a national campaign that is getting up the nose of some of the country’s most influential politicians.

One campaigner says "This is a political crisis. We are providing the public with a service, reminding them that the people asking for our trust now have a dreadful record of predicting what would happen. We are trying to provoke a conversation. It’s unclear if they were liars or fantasists, but they were definitely wrong."

www.smh.com.au/world/europe/it-began-at-the-pub-the-campaign-to-shame-brexit-s-biggest-donkeys-20190201-p50uzq.html

Looking at the comments, it seems that the readers of the Sydney Morning Herald are shocked that so many voters in the UK were conned, and that the UK government is determined to inflict terrible damage on the country because of this fraudulent referendum.

jura2 Fri 01-Feb-19 18:00:35

In the meantime, the UK, the US and the West in general are criticising Venezuela's election sad

varian Fri 01-Feb-19 18:16:40

£120,000 fine for Leave.EU for serious breaches of electronic marketing laws- a bit like fining Lance Armstrong for taking drugs but letting him keep the Tour de France titles he won while on those drugs.

varian Sat 02-Feb-19 12:25:26

Leave.EU campaign and Arron Banks firm Eldon Insurance fined for illegal marketing. The data law watchdog has issued fines totalling £120,000 to two organisations involved in the Brexit campaign.

news.sky.com/story/leave-campaign-and-arron-banks-firm-elson-insurance-fined-for-illegal-marketing-11624617

On the day this shocking story was reported by Sky News and Channel 4, the BBC did NOT even mention it. Surely it is time that the outrageous bias of the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation was investigated???? They are after all funded by us, and most of us want to Remain in the EU and are utterly sickened at the antics of our once-respected public service broadcaster.

RosieLeah Sat 02-Feb-19 13:46:02

This is an insult to those who voted 'Leave'. Do you think we are unable to think for ourselves? Do you think we have been unaware of how this country has been affected by joining the EU, with its petty little rules and leniency towards criminals? I, and many others, didn't vote to join and jumped at the opportunity to vote to leave. I didn't need persuading, just the chance to voice my opinion.

Beau Sat 02-Feb-19 13:59:18

Well said Rosie 👏🏻 👍🏻

Alexa Sat 02-Feb-19 14:03:49

RosieLeah, the chance to voice your opinion belongs with chatting in the pub or coffee shop. Voting in a life changing referendum belongs with facts and how they impact upon everybody else.

MaizieD Sat 02-Feb-19 14:15:11

Well said, Alexa

What 'petty little rules' don't you like, Rosie?

jura2 Sat 02-Feb-19 15:13:38

RosieLeah could you kindly give us a list of those petty EU rules which influenced your vote. Thanks.

Nonnie Sat 02-Feb-19 16:32:43

I would like those details too please Rosie I'm ready to listen and change my mind.

Day6 Sat 02-Feb-19 16:42:17

Voting in a life changing referendum belongs with facts and how they impact upon everybody else

How it hurt Remainers to lose you mean? The angst the middle class elite felt because, well, how dare those common little oiks think differently from us, who know better? That sort of impact?

Give it a rest, please.

No one knows what the world will be like this time next week, next year, the day after we leave the EU. No one can predict anything for sure.

I was informed enough to know Leave could be the only way I voted. How dare anyone suggest my vote or my reasons for voting Leave weren't valid.

jura2 Sat 02-Feb-19 16:50:57

RosieLeah was totally entitled to write:

' how this country has been affected by joining the EU, with its petty little rules'

and no-one is saying it is not valid. It is totally fair to ask what rules she had in mind. So we will wait patiently and politely, in hope.

varian Sat 02-Feb-19 18:36:35

Brexit lies: The demonstrably false claims of the EU referendum campaign-

‘Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market’ – Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan

‘Once we have settled our accounts, we will take back control of roughly £350m per week’ – Boris Johnson

‘We will need an emergency Budget to restore stability to public finances’ – George Osborne

‘The UK loses out because other members favour a highly regulated and protectionist economy’ – Jacob Rees-Mogg

‘Turkey (population 76 million) is joining the EU’ – Vote Leave publicity

Of course the Gransnet leavers have told us that they were not influenced by any of these lies, but surely we can agree that some leave voters might have been?

varian Sat 02-Feb-19 18:41:30

No, before you point it out, I will say that I do know that George Osborne was not a leaver. He was David Cameron's sidekick and second in command, who at some point in the campaign, decided that he had to try to counter the leaver's lies with scare tactics. That misfired, didn't it because of the Tory's credibility deficit.

MaizieD Sat 02-Feb-19 19:13:58

Nobody is suggesting that your vote wasn't valid, Day6. What is being suggested is the the referendum result is not valid because some of the Leave campaign groups cheated and broke the electoral law.

Had it been an election the result would have been declared invalid. As it was only advisory there is no recourse to the law.

jura2 Sat 02-Feb-19 19:56:52

RosieLeah - perhaps you are out- but I do hope you will come back and tell us about those 'petty little rules'.

It's very hard to have any sensible debate otherwise.

MaizieD Sat 02-Feb-19 23:10:08

But, Day6, I do wish you would tell us the sources of your assertions about the EU.

I'm still waiting to find out where you got the figure of £19 billion from as the UK's contribution to the EU in 2014.

I wonder if it was from a 'source' like this MP who not only seems to relish the idea of refighting WWII but also has his history completely wrong:

Daniel Kawczynski @DKShrewsbury

Britain helped to liberate half of Europe. She mortgaged herself up to eye balls in process. No Marshall Plan for us only for Germany. We gave up war reparations in 1990. We put £370 billion into EU since we joined. Watch the way ungrateful EU treats us now. We will remember.

Just read the thread where everyone puts him right. Britain got the biggest allocation of Marshall Aid in Europe.

twitter.com/DKShrewsbury/status/1091728290337959936

I wonder how many of the Leavers on here actually approve of this guy and agree with what he's saying?

Farmor15 Sun 03-Feb-19 06:21:34

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/post-brexit-britain-may-not-want-to-pay-for-northern-ireland-1.3723855
The UK exchequer provides a £10.8 billion (€12.1 billion) annual subsidy to Northern Ireland and pays £8.6 billion net each year to the European Union.
I hesitate to get involved in this debate as I’m not British, but wonder if many know that supporting Northern Ireland costs more than membership of EU?

RosieLeah Sun 03-Feb-19 07:50:40

Surely the topic under discussion is whether those who voted to leave were influenced by the Leave campaign? If you wish to discuss the merits of the EU, you should do so under a new heading. As for the matter of Northern Ireland...if it is so important to them to have an open border with Eire, perhaps they need to ask themselves where their first loyalties lie? Having lived in Ireland, I know that one of the main concerns is the influence of the Catholic church. Now that the Pope has less control over the Irish government, perhaps those of the North might re-consider a re-united Ireland?

crystaltipps Sun 03-Feb-19 08:18:13

Religion much less important in ROI than NI. The influence of the church has declined so much in ROI. The recent referendums on gay marriage and abortion show that. NI far more intolerant.

MaizieD Sun 03-Feb-19 08:40:28

Since when, RosieLeah, were you put in control of the conduct of these threads?

As for the matter of Northern Ireland...if it is so important to them to have an open border with Eire, perhaps they need to ask themselves where their first loyalties lie?

For someone who claims to have lived in Ireland you show a staggering lack of understanding of the place and talk of 'loyalties' in this context has a rather ominous ring to it.

We are, incidentally, still all agog to hear about these petty EU rules which blight your life.

And now it would be interesting to know what you think of the ignorant tweet I posted earlier..

jura2 Sun 03-Feb-19 10:03:54

RosieLeah - you yourselves wrote:

'...the EU, with its petty little rules' - and I politely asked you to give exemples of those rules you mention.

And this is hard- because, again and again- Leavers say this- and yet, again and again, when asked to specify, they never ever answer. You didn't either. And if I do ask again, you will probably say, as Leavers always do, that they are being 'bullied'. And sometimes, in the end, some of us will turn to sarcasm, as James O'Brien did the other day on Twitter. He sarcastically said, and I can't blame him something like 'how amazing that people who got so upset about bent bananas, are now very happy that we won't be able to get bananas anymore'.

But the question, questions indeed, remain - and I know, will probably remain un-answered:

which rule/s?

jura2 Sun 03-Feb-19 10:07:41

1. Can you give ONE example of a EU law that has harmed Britain?
2. Can you give ONE example of a EU policy that has been imposed on Britain against the wishes of the UK government?
3. Can you give ONE example of how EU membership has harmed your personally?
4. Can you give ONE example of how leaving the EU will improve the quality of life for you and your family?

Nonnie Sun 03-Feb-19 10:12:50

Day6 your post seems to imply that you think that those who voted remain are not as bright as those who voted leave.

Rosie as others have said it is what you posted on this thread that we would like an answer to please.

jura2 Sun 03-Feb-19 10:36:16

With any kind of soft Brexit, be it Mrs May's deal, or the unicorn one dreamt up by JC- or the Norway style deal...
we will still be bound to accept those rules, as well as free movement ... the only difference is that we won't have any say in them. All EU rules are made with all 28- and the UK always sat at the top table - all the rules had vetoes too, so we could have stopped them if we didn't want them. Not made by unelected penpushers, but our MEPs that we voted in (sadly a large % never bothered to take part in those European elections in the UK, but that is NOT the fault of the EU. And sadly of of those voted in harly ever went and never did his job sad )

jura2 Sun 03-Feb-19 17:54:37

Sadly, I don't think Rosie will come back to give examples, somehow.

Perhaps it is some of those, pages and pages, and more pages of them- peddled by the tabloid anti EU Press.

It’s well documented how much the British right-wing press has dedicated itself to scaremongering and anti-EU propaganda in the last 45 years. What is less well known is the sheer scale of this endless stream of lies.

Happily, last year the EU put together a marvellous site debunking these newspapers’ nonsense. Starting with falsehoods from the early 1990’s, the website has given officials in Brussels a chance to rebut media accusations and contains hundreds of reports that are based on inaccurate or misleading information.

These include legendary idiotic stories about curved bananas being banned, to the less well-known yet equally ludicrous one-size-fits-all “euro condom” story and the story of Britain being forced to get rid of pints, acres, inches, feet and pounds in favour of metric measurements.

To see for yourself how stupid they are, check out the full list below. And for all of their rebukes, head on over to the EU’s site.

MaizieD Sun 03-Feb-19 18:02:35

Link, jura?

jura2 Sun 03-Feb-19 18:23:06

Sorry, here it is. Warning, there are pages and pages and more pages.

inktank.fi/this-list-of-all-euromyths-printed-by-uk-media-proves-how-much-right-wing-press-lies/?fbclid=IwAR1SR1XJnPoXwG_bq3-hjOu0ZeAry16zon0bi1qmIQsxzePxagR6a8EdFBM

crystaltipps Sun 03-Feb-19 18:28:23

Of course they cant give any example of “ petty little rules” and if they are so petty, why it is worth billions, thousands of jobs, a collapsing economy and so on.

jura2 Tue 05-Feb-19 17:43:37

Did you hear the Brexiter who called in to James O'Brien's show- and said 'if I want bananas, I'll just go up a mountain, climb up a tree and pick some!' - I wonder if those would be bent or straight ;)

Buffybee Tue 05-Feb-19 18:35:20

Jura you do realize that bananas grow in South America,
South-East Asia Africa and the Caribbean Islands.

So quite how this James O'Brien thinks we will have difficulty obtaining bananas after we leave the EU is very strange.

Unless he is so brainwashed he believes all the above countries are in the EU.

MaizieD Tue 05-Feb-19 18:44:41

Why do you assume that James O'Brien thinks we'll have difficulty obtaining bananas? According to jura's anecdote it was the Brexiter who mentioned them.

Of course, bananas grow on the flat, too...

jura2 Tue 05-Feb-19 18:53:20

Thank you Maizie. Yes, of course James never mentionned bananas- the programme discussed shortages, and this man phoned him and just offered this piece of wisdom.

Of course we could discuss now that even though bananas will be plentyful - importing them might not be so easy to import as now, for a myriad of reasons.

Fennel Tue 05-Feb-19 18:59:05

Eee Jura you're a one-off.
Where have you been and what have you been doing?

Buffybee Tue 05-Feb-19 19:35:01

I didn't assume at all Maizie it was worded in a way that James O'Brien was saying that we would have difficulty obtaining bananas after we have left the EU.

And sometimes,in the end, some of us will turn to sarcasm, as James O'Brien did the other day on Twitter. He sarcastically said, and I can't blame him something like, 'how amazing that people who got so upset about bent bananas, are now very happy that we won't be able to get bananas anymore'.

I can only read this as James O'Brien saying it.

Buffybee Tue 05-Feb-19 19:38:32

I was of course referring to Jura 10:03

jura2 Tue 05-Feb-19 20:50:21

Two totally separate occasions. The 'I'll go up a mountain, climb a tree and pick some' from a caller on James O'Brien's programme came a few days after he wrote this.

Fact is, some Brexiters have been saying they don't mind not having access to fresh produce from abroad, and that it will be good to tighten our belt, eat less, and only eat British produce (a lot of this I would agree with btw, for totally different reasons).

Buffybee Tue 05-Feb-19 21:16:09

So, Jura, I did read your post of 10:03 correctly and you're saying it was this James O'Brien who said that we won't be able to get bananas any more.
Strange chap!!!

Now at 18:53 you are saying that bananas will be plentiful - importing them might not be so easy to import as now, for a myriad of reasons.

Can you give examples of the 'myriad of reasons' why we
won't find it easy to import our bananas from South America,
Africa, SoutEast Asia and the Caribbean.?

Do you think that we are suddenly going to forget how to import goods, after we leave the EU?

jura2 Tue 05-Feb-19 22:05:26

You won't forget how you used to do it.

It will be a very different ball or banana game, for sure, on WTO rules.

Buffybee Tue 05-Feb-19 22:17:24

What are you talking about?
You won't forget how you used to do it.
This makes no sense to me at all.

You stated that it would be difficult to import bananas after we leave the EU and I asked you to state one of the myriad reasons.

And if course it will be different under WTO, why are you stating the obvious and trying to make it sound ominous.

I await your myriad reasons why it will not be as easy as now to import bananas.

Davidhs Wed 06-Feb-19 06:58:58

I too was interested to hear about Rosieleahs “ pretty little rules “ as well. But she just changes the subject, so I assume than like all Brexiteers it really is just pregidice, lies and fantasy.
There is not one ounce of logic or sense in Brexit and we are going to end up being worse off than now, except for JRM and cronies of course.

jura2 Wed 06-Feb-19 10:03:48

BuffyBee, I am so sorry it does not make sense to you. It makes total sense to me- and I hope to many others to.

Businesses had about half a century of import/export as members of the EU- no tariffs, free flowing traffic at borders, unhindered flights in and out of the country, little red tape - they are very good at it, and very experienced.

WTO rules will change almost every aspect of import/export- really it is not hard to fathom.

trisher Wed 06-Feb-19 11:12:51

The problem is that there is now an unknown quantity that is feared by politicians- perhaps we can call them the one-time voters OTV for short. The OTV came out and voted in the referendum and all the parties are now trying to work out how to attract the support of the OTVs. So they won't look at the referendum even if it was illegal, they won't be the ones to cancel article 50 because in doing so they will alienate the OTVs. So we stagger into a recession with jobs lost and an economy that will plummet because none of the politicians wants to be the adult and take responsibility.

Alexa Sun 10-Feb-19 15:42:16

I wish that Northern Ireland would merge with Ireland , And I wish that Scotland and England would continue to be main movers in Europe and full members of the Community.

As Jura pointed out, we had a democratic election when we elected our European MPs. I voted .

Brexit will make it difficult detect and detain international criminals.

Nonnie Mon 11-Feb-19 09:41:33

Alexa there has been a lot on the news today about international criminals and how much harder it will be for our police to do their job if we leave the EU. It worries me too. All those people who want to stop EU immigration won't be able to stop international criminals.

I can't agree about NI and Eire joining up as one country. We didn't give the Falklands away why would we give away NI? Why would we reject a huge group of UK citizens?

mcem Mon 11-Feb-19 10:08:53

Just catching up with latest posts and am puzzled.
To me, it's crystal clear that jura posted about a brexiteer who phoned up with his idiotic banana comment. How can it be read any other way?

jura2 Mon 11-Feb-19 12:09:04

Indeed mcem.

On the one hand people complain about 'petty rules' from the EU (still waiting for a list btw) .. and on the other hand say 'ah well, we will just have to do without- it will be good for us- like during the war' ...

and bananas are a great exemple- which leads itself to jokes and spoofs.

jura2 Mon 11-Feb-19 12:12:13

As for the merge between Ireland and NI- I have to say, from a distance- that would be great and solve many problems.

But would they belong to the EU, or to the UK ???????
Gets a bit more complicated no?

And it just won't and can't happen. Too soon, too much hurt on both sides, too much anger that the Friday agreement has barely brushed aside, but not solved. My sil comes from NI and lived through the troubles - and it is clear that it just can't happen.

It might- in 3 perhaps 4 generations- but NOT now. Really, NOT now.

Alexa Mon 11-Feb-19 23:46:50

I just cannot think of any sound reason that Ulster Irish are better off as part of a UK especially now that Ireland is not any longer under the heel of the Roman church, and also especially now that the UK is in this fearsome mess about Brexit.

The Ulster Unionists who prefer to remain British are mostly people who view the Republicans as inferior persons. If I were an Ulsterwoman I'd not want to be associated with any religious not cases.

jura2 Tue 12-Feb-19 10:00:01

That is the way it is.

Nonnie Tue 12-Feb-19 11:52:53

Am I right in thinking that the majority of jobs in NI are in the public sector? I think it was an Ulsterman who told me that. What would happen to all those jobs if we gave NI away?

mcem Tue 12-Feb-19 17:23:59

If we gave NI away
What on earth does that mean? Who's "we" and who has the right to give away any part of the UK? And to whom would it be given?

Nonnie Tue 12-Feb-19 17:38:00

Some are suggesting that NI and Eire become one. I think that would only happen if we gave it away

mcem Tue 12-Feb-19 18:33:28

Still wondering who is the "we" that can give away NI.
Seriously and without being rude, do you know anything about Irish history?

paddyann Tue 12-Feb-19 19:15:08

Oh my god,"GIVE IT AWAY" you do know that the arrogance of Westminster thinking it owns the other countries in the union is a huge part of the problem.Nobody owns NI ,it was filched as part of a deal ...nobody owns Scotland the people are sovereign .If and when either decides to WALK away from the UK its their choice ...no one else's

jura2 Tue 12-Feb-19 19:34:19

Scary stuff sad

MarthaBeck Tue 12-Feb-19 19:38:30

Prejudice built on lies and misinformation is like a disease that is easily spread. However, if crimes are committed and subjected to law, then upheld. Is justice served if those committing the crime benefit from their actions?

MarthaBeck Tue 12-Feb-19 19:47:19

Jura2, it’s very simple, NI would accede to Eire by leaving the Union under international law. As such a now United Ireland would automatically be a member of the EU.

mcem Tue 12-Feb-19 19:52:16

paddy that's why I bit my tongue and asked 2 genuine questions. I honestly don't believe that nonnie does understand the history of Ireland and the implications of her "suggestion".
Maybe she needs a genuine explanation or the opportunity to do a bit of research.

mcem Tue 12-Feb-19 19:56:20

Martha I don't think your very simplistic explanation helps at all I'm afraid.
You totally ignore all that is significant in Irish history and don't give any background of context.

mcem Tue 12-Feb-19 19:57:25

Background or context

jura2 Tue 12-Feb-19 20:09:36

MarthaBeck - simple you say?!? wow- you really have no idea.

And who would decide - would 'we' (whomever we is - I guess England!?!) 'give them up/throw them out' - or would they decide for themselves.

MarthaBeck Tue 12-Feb-19 20:10:08

Today, a highly respected National Bus Leader said

“A disruptive no deal Brexit is the biggest threat businesses have faced since 1939, many are threatened with extinction" according to Ian Wright, CEO of the Food and Drink Federation. "I don't think people are taking this seriously"

Surely we cannot allow our prejudices to ignore such warnings?

Jabberwok Tue 12-Feb-19 20:11:15

N.I was NOT filched Paddyann. If you bothered to aquaint yourself with the history of Home Rule, you would realise that Ulster is and was made up of a majority of Protestant/ Scottish migrants dating back to James 1st in the early 17th cent. The decendants of these immigrants resisted Home Rule threatening to take up arms in order NOT to be incorporated into independent catholic Eire, insisting on remaining under the British Crown, creating enormous problems which have persisted to the present day. Not filched, more like wished onto Westminster who would in 1922 have been thankful to see the back of Ulster, but unfortunately politically it just couldn't happen.

mcem Tue 12-Feb-19 20:26:42

Whether agreeing or disagreeing, the last few posts have clearly shown that the Irish question is far from simple!

MaizieD Tue 12-Feb-19 20:49:42

^ If you bothered to aquaint yourself with the history of Home Rule, you would realise that Ulster is and was made up of a majority of Protestant/ Scottish migrants dating back to James 1st in the early 17th cent.^

Quite honestly, Jabberwok, I'd call that filching. Like we filched north America, Australia and New Zealand from the original inhabitants.

And the English had laid claim to, and settled, part of Ireland long before the Jacobean settlements.

It's all very complex and still bound up with religion. Which is why the Good Friday Agreement is so very significant.

Jabberwok Tue 12-Feb-19 21:35:21

Your argument is spurious mazieD. No present government can be held responsible for what happened 500 years ago, The majority of people of NI have made it crystal clear that hell would freeze over before they agree to merge with the south, Brexit notwithstanding. Unfortunately!

MaizieD Tue 12-Feb-19 21:56:02

I'm not altogether sure what your 'argument' was, Jabberwok. Paddyann said, perfectly correctly, that NI was filched from the Irish. I was agreeing with her. The 'Irish' Irish have as much right to determine their future as do the descendants of the Anglo-Irish protestants.

I've said before that it's very complex and the current problem is that the Good Friday Agreement has worked, on the whole, extremely well for the whole of Ireland. It's worked extremely well because it is very fudgy. The minute one starts to dig into details one comes unstuck. It is unbelievable that it should be so carelessly threatened in the cause of not splitting the tory party.

paddyann Tue 12-Feb-19 22:37:30

I do know my Irish history My ancestors were Irish and I had first hand accounts of the days of the Black and Tans etc and the engineered starvation of the Irish during the famine when my Great Grandparents came to Scotland ,they went back in the 1880's when life was a bit ...but not a lot better .

jura2 Wed 13-Feb-19 09:49:40

We can go back to the past - but we are NOW - and there is NO way NI will leave the UK and merge with Ireland- at this point in time.

Perhaps in 3, 4 , 5 generations, but NOT NOW for sure.

Jabberwok Wed 13-Feb-19 10:14:26

Exactly jura! To reunite Ireland, Ulster would have to have a referendum as would the South and at the present time there isn't a cat in hells chance of Ulster agreeing on reunification! So,thanks to the arrangements made in 1922 we're stuck with what we've got! Not awfully sure that the South would want it either, bearing in mind the commotion it would cause!!! I too have Irish G.Grandparents, County Cork to be precise, but it's the North we're talking about on here, not the South!

MarthaBeck Wed 13-Feb-19 23:24:37

I find it hard to comprehend Jura2 thinking. How she can possible think that an independent Country (as Ireland is ) can be a part of the UK by a merger of NI into Ireland.
Irish history is complexed enough. My view is simple if the NI electorate demanded a referendum to leave the UK and merge with Ireland, then it is the equivalent of a Brexit. What ever the NI electorate decides then having made a decision we should accept the result the majority decided

MaizieD Thu 14-Feb-19 01:21:22

I don't think that Jura thinks that at all, MarthaB. But I'm finding this stuff about NI difficult to follow, so I may have missed a vital post...

Davidhs Thu 14-Feb-19 06:54:56

Ireland will quite likely unite at some point in the future but that is entirely irrelevant at this time, there are far too many vested interests for that to happen at present. While Ulster is subsidized by Westminster for political gain nothing will change because most of that benefits Unionist voters. When the funding stops and they have to live in the real world a welcoming south will be much more attractive.
The way that 300 yr old battles are celebrated in the streets is a disgrace all in the name of culture, that must stop.

Jabberwok Thu 14-Feb-19 12:37:31

The only way to stop the marches is to legislate! I wouldn't want to be the government that endorses that!! The fallout could be violent to say the least!!
Of course NI may well rejoin the South at some future date by general consensus, but as these old hatreds run very deep, the prospect of that happening in the foreseeable future is virtually zilch!

Davidhs Thu 14-Feb-19 16:24:43

Nothing to do with old hatreds, it’s the Protestants wanting to dominate the Catholics and it has no place on the 21st century.
We hated the Germans and Japanese 70 years ago and far greater atrocities were committed in WW2, a few decades later it wasn’t forgotten but most animosity was gone and well over half the cars on the roads are now German or Japanese.

MaizieD Thu 14-Feb-19 17:24:36

a few decades later it wasn’t forgotten but most animosity was gone

But we haven't been fanning the flames for 300+ years, David.

And what I've heard and read over the past two years makes me doubt very much if animosity towards the Germans has gone

jura2 Thu 14-Feb-19 19:11:27

MarthaBeck - not sure how you got to that conclusion ???

As for your crossed out message MaizieD - sadly you are so right. Anti German comments and refs to the war, have been a common thread on Brexiter sites, and with Brexiters I've met. Young Germans find it totally incredible and very offensive.

varian Thu 14-Feb-19 19:52:12

My German friend, who has lived in this country for all her adult life, worked, paid taxes, was elected to the council of her professional body (in the UK) and has also been recognised by our local authority for her achievements as an elite athlete, has suffered racial abuse since the referendum, which she had never encountered in all her 25 years of living in the UK, to the extent that she has contemplated leaving the country.

Well done, Leave campaigners, you have pandered to the worst instincts of English nationalism. If I had voted leave, and was not a racist (for not all leave voters are racists), I would be thoroughly ashamed.

Cherrytree59 Thu 14-Feb-19 20:32:31

How would Northern Ireland referendum work?
Do you wish to leave the UK?
Yes
No.

If in the unlikely event of a yes vote would the south then hold their own referendum?

Do you (Republic of Ireland) wish to unite with Northern Ireland and become one country.
Yes
No.

If the vote is No
What then?

There has been threads on MN where MNers have suggested that a united Ireland would be in both North and South interest.
Where upon several posters from Southern Ireland have in 'MNers speak' retorted
NO - they have no wish to have Northern Ireland back!

varian Tue 26-Feb-19 13:25:31

Theresa May has been urged to confirm if ministers blocked MI5 probe into Brexit donor Arron Banks.

It has been claimed security services were prevented from ­investigating Mr Banks in 2016

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-urged-confirm-ministers-blocked-13525794

It has also been claimed that when she was Home Secretary she declined to act on proof of Russian money being used for political purposes in the UK.

The fraudulent 2016 referendum should be declared illegal and Article 50 revoked before any more harm is done to the UK.

jura2 Tue 26-Feb-19 15:01:58

Have I got this right. The Electoral Commission says that there is plenty of evidence of fraud, interference, foreign/illegal money and more- to make the result of the Referendum void.

But they cannot do so because the Referendum, by Law- was advisory- and the electoral commission cannot interfere with a non binding referendum ?!?!?!?!?!

This is totally crazy - and people still go on with 'the will of the people' and 'respecting the referendum' - sheer madness.

Seems also increasingly clear that the Police have been and are being, prevented from investigating? And people talk about 'Democracy?. Talk about banana Republic sad

Jabberwok Tue 26-Feb-19 15:58:33

I can assure you David, that hatreds in NI go far far deeper and far far longer than 70 years, much much further than anything felt for Germany or Japan . Even now children go to different schools, people live in predominately Catholic or Protestant areas, in many areas life is dominated by the division with neither side wanting to have too much to do with the other. You're right,there is no place for that in the 21st cent,but first persuade the two sides in NI of that feeling!!!!

lemongrove Tue 26-Feb-19 16:06:44

Exactly Jabberwok those of us who have some understanding of NI know exactly how things are there.

varian Tue 26-Feb-19 17:31:44

The potentially explosive problem in Northern Ireland could be solved quite simply, by doing what the majority in Northern Ireland have always wanted, and the majority in the whole of the UK have also wanted for at least the last eighteen months- revoke Article 50 and Remain in the EU.

varian Fri 01-Mar-19 17:26:32

"We should not ask people to vote on a blank sheet of paper and tell them to trust us to fill in the details afterwards. For referendums to be fair and compatible with our parliamentary process, we need the electors to be as well informed as possible and to know exactly what they are voting for. Referendums need to be treated as an addition to the parliamentary process, not as a substitute for it."

David Davis addressing the HOC 26 November 2002 (Hansard col 201)

I actually agree with DD on this. I know the quitters like to say they all knew exactly what they were voting for "leave means leave" , "brexit means brexit" and all the rest of the nonsense, but how could they possibly have known ? It was utterly absurd to expect a simple answer to a very complicated question. It was a blank sheet of paper.

varian Mon 04-Mar-19 16:41:09

The extent of Russian-backed fraud means the referendum is invalid

blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/11/14/the-extent-of-russian-backed-fraud-means-the-referendum-is-invalid/

varian Tue 19-Mar-19 16:45:16

Vote Leave has been fined £40,000 for sending thousands of unsolicited text messages in the run-up to the EU referendum.

The organisation sent 196,154 messages and was unable to provide evidence recipients had consented, as required by electronic marketing law.

They said Vote Leave claimed it had deleted evidence of consent relied upon to send the messages after the referendum in 2016.

ICO director of investigations Steve Eckersley said: “Spam texts are a real nuisance for millions of people and we will take action against organisations who disregard the law.

“Direct marketing is not just about selling products and services, it’s also about promoting an organisation’s aims and ideals.

“Political campaigns and parties, like any other organisations, have to comply with the law.”

It comes on the same day that Labour Leave were fined £9,000 for failing to disclose all donations to their campaign.

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/another-fine-for-vote-leave-for-sending-spam-texts-during-brexit-campaign-1-5946375

varian Wed 20-Mar-19 11:20:20

Halt Brexit For A Public Inquiry

The UK's departure from the EU looms but questions remain about the legitimacy of the Referendum. The Electoral Commission said illegal overspending occurred during the Referendum. Were the vote/any subsequent political acts affected? Article 50 was triggered. Was the overspend known about then?

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241848?fbclid=IwAR1JR-DJt0kt4KsdwMf-WVSpjdjASSSAqbga7uTfGZRH-M_nKdw5kMCd_4c

varian Sat 30-Mar-19 10:09:05

Vote Leave has dropped its appeal against a £61,000 fine for electoral offences committed during the Brexit referendum.

The fine was imposed on the group, which was the lead campaigner for a leave vote, last year after the Electoral Commission concluded that it broke legal spending limits by donating hundreds of thousands of pounds to another leave campaigner, the then 22-year-old fashion student Darren Grimes, founder of BeLeave.

Vote Leave appealed against the fine, claiming that its donation to Grimes had been signed off by the commission. Supporters of the group suggested, without evidence, that commission staff were opposed to leaving the EU and were persecuting leave campaigners.

However, in a statement released on Friday afternoon, the Electoral Commission said Vote Leave had withdrawn its appeal. “We found that [Vote Leave] broke the electoral rules set out by parliament to ensure fairness, confidence and legitimacy at an electoral event,” it said.

“Serious offences such as these undermine public confidence in our system, and it is vital, therefore, that they are properly investigated and sanctioned. We have been advised that Vote Leave has paid its £61,000 fine and look forward to receiving the sum in full.”

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/29/vote-leave-drops-appeal-against-fine-for-electoral-offences

Urmstongran Sat 30-Mar-19 10:27:58

6 posts varian on the bounce! Brexit seems to have given you a new lease of life.
😊

Framilode Sat 30-Mar-19 10:38:20

You too Urmstongran.

jura2 Sun 31-Mar-19 10:34:33

So, Gove and BJ have dropped their appeal re the fraudulent extra 625.000 spent on the Leave campaign. I wonder why hmmmmm - I think we should ensure that it is not forgotten and links properly investigated- what have they got to hide - now they want the top post (*of forbid)

jura2 Sun 31-Mar-19 10:49:19

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/30/gove-johnson-under-fire-vote-leave-fine-appeal-dropped?fbclid=IwAR2TbHLyZWhSL6pIqNPF-f6GIjtG3QlTCdlXGKnSlBKOfEi2Qcvlotsn8Ro

GabriellaG54 Sun 31-Mar-19 17:12:54

Certain people have lot to say and most of it repetitious hot air...with links to more of the same.
Nothing they say will alter the outcome one jot.
I'd really not want to be in a room with such people, it's a recipe for high BP and a heart attack. The venom is palpable.