Gransnet forums

News & politics

Tory Leadership race

(427 Posts)
Whitewavemark2 Tue 11-Jun-19 13:03:21

As far as I can see not one of the contenders has a clear plan with regard to Brexit.

Without a plan we can’t move on.

eazybee Tue 11-Jun-19 13:57:33

They all have plans.

You just don't happen to approve of any of them.

EllanVannin Tue 11-Jun-19 14:12:53

They'll still make a muck of things whatever their plans.

kittylester Tue 11-Jun-19 14:39:30

I have heard lots of plans - some more feasible than others but still plans.

Callistemon Tue 11-Jun-19 15:05:42

Whatever plans anyone of any party has it still has to get a majority vote.

What exactly did the MPs think they were voting for when the majority voted to give the power to trigger Article 50?

None of them have a clue.

Nico97 Tue 11-Jun-19 15:06:01

It could be that politicians have taken on the famous Robert Burns line - The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry and that's why they don't have a plan grin

Whitewavemark2 Tue 11-Jun-19 17:23:46


Ken Clarke

My first question to the candidates, and let’s start with an easy one, which drug do you recommend to maintain my enthusiasm for this leadership contest?

Urmstongran Tue 11-Jun-19 17:55:59

Oh well said easzybee 👍🏼

Whitewavemark2 Tue 11-Jun-19 17:58:49

eazy and ug I would be very grateful if you would be so kind as to outline their plans, as you are wrong thinking I do not approve, I simply am not aware of them.

Whitewavemark2 Tue 11-Jun-19 18:21:03

If I was a Tory I think after listening to many of the candidates Stewart would get my vote.

Whitewavemark2 Tue 11-Jun-19 18:28:18

I can definately see a scenario where Johnson gets the leadership and tries to take us over the cliff. He gets voted out on a vote of no confidence and Stewart and others form a centre party sweeping up people like Ummuna, Soubry etc. They would be difficult to beat in a GE

Iam64 Tue 11-Jun-19 18:57:24

Oh Whitewavemark2, if only!

I've heard Andrea Leadson saying her red line is leaving the EU in October no deal if necessary
S Javid says his life experience will enable him to negotiate more effectively (at least I think thats what he said)

I'm not sure what Govester is saying, except that he believes he's 2nd only to god, or maybe he's transcended and is higher than god.

I rather like the no hoper who says no deal is a nightmare and we need to put it all off and negotiate again.

Flashman - who knows what he believes,I'm not sure he does. I'm also not sure if he's simply keeping himself out of the lime light as a way of hogging the lime light, or whether his team have him tied up in a cupboard somewhere.

Callistemon Tue 11-Jun-19 19:38:46

My first question to the candidates, and let’s start with an easy one, which drug do you recommend to maintain my enthusiasm for this leadership contest?

Perhaps a sleeping pill, wake me up when it's all over.

Day6 Tue 11-Jun-19 19:40:14

I am surprised anyone wants to take over from Theresa May! They need their heads testing, if you ask me.

No one will be able to deliver Brexit because Remainer MPs will block whatever the next PM produces. It is a farce.

I think the Conservative Party is washed up right now and I predict whoever becomes the next leader will not have very long in office, or any success with ensuring we leave the EU. That in itself is a terrible indictment of the present political situation in the UK and the controlling influence of parliament.

I'd like Sajid Javid to be the next PM but as was mentioned in another thread, should he become PM his promising political career will hit the rocks. (The same applies to all the other contenders..most of whom lack promise. )

ABG too, for me - Anyone But Gove.

Grandad1943 Tue 11-Jun-19 21:33:25

I believe that the one thing this Brexit crisis has demonstrated is that Britains parliamentary and electoral system is totally out of date.

The centuries-old setup of the House of Commons is no longer fit for purpose in today's world. Members of Parliament cannot easily communicate with each other in the chamber except via their phones, and communication with the Speaker involves standing up or waving an order paper and hope to be seen. Gesturing and shouting are such that it continually resembles a kids playground that simply makes Britain a laughing stock in the eyes of the world.

It is time that the Palace of Westminster was consigned to become a tourist attraction, and Parliament moved to a new purpose built building. There the MPs can be sat at workstations that enable them to electrically communicate with each other and the Speaker and also access any documents or information they require online.

Along with the above, those Members of Parliament must all have been elected by proportional representation and any one of them shouting or gesturing to others in the chamber would be ordered out so reasonable considered debate can take place in all sessions.

Finally, alcohol should not be available to Members of Parliament or any others who work there while the House of Commons or Lords is in daily session.

It is time for radical change in our Parliamentary system if there is to be any public restoration in our democratic process.

Under the present structure and process, I believe that whoever is elected as Conservative Prime Minister, Parliament will once again fail Britain at the end of October, and the current crisis will be extended and deepen to the detriment of all.

crystaltipps Tue 11-Jun-19 22:40:21

day6 again you are blaming remainer MPs for the non delivery of Brexit, when it was the Erg and other brexitty members who wouldn’t back Theresa Mays WA which would have ensured Brexit back in March. Then the negotiations would have begun. But no it wasn’t brexitty enough, so got voted down by them and the Brexit backing DUP. What is wrong with Parliament being controlling? That’s their job - didn’t you brexitters want parliamentary sovereignty??

MaizieD Tue 11-Jun-19 23:25:01

didn’t you brexitters want parliamentary sovereignty??

It was never my impression that they did want parliamentary sovereignty, crystaltipps. And the very fact that they don't seem to understand what it means just confirms that impression.

What they seem to have wanted is some vague and undefined concept called 'sovereignty' which has now boiled down to 'parliament must do what they want it to do'. An entirely different kettle of fish...

Ginny42 Tue 11-Jun-19 23:26:13

Andrea Leadsom's opening gambit at her launch today:

'Over the last three years politics has failed dismally.'
Talk about stating the bleedin' obvious.

And who has been Leader of the House of Commons since 1st June 2016?

Callistemon Tue 11-Jun-19 23:30:15

It is time that the Palace of Westminster was consigned to become a tourist attraction, and Parliament moved to a new purpose built building.

You could be right, but how much will that cost?

They do have microphones.
Would moving to a state-of-the-art building improve their behaviour, do you think?

MaizieD Tue 11-Jun-19 23:58:21

It might modify their behaviour somewhat if it were to be designed on non-confrontational lines. like many modern Parliament buildings. The fact that our current old building has the parties sitting opposite each other encourages confrontation. It also fails to recognise that there are more than two parties needing accommodation.

Unfortunately, the 'temporary' accommodation which parliament is to have while the HOP is being renovated has been configured on just the same lines as the current building.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 12-Jun-19 06:42:19

Raab is targeting the over 55 age group in ads he’s placed on Facebook which so far has cost £54k. He is clearly calculating that he will be in the final run off.

Johnson has spent £4K on ads so far, but expect this to be increased nearer the run off.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 12-Jun-19 07:01:03

Looking at Raab - his tax proposals.

He is proposing to lower the basic tax threshold to 15%. This is probably the most costly tax proposal of the lot, and in line with the hard rights proposal of a small state.
Each 1% drop equates to a loss of revenue of £5bn per year so in total the revenue will lose £25bn each year. Raab is also proposing to align the start of payment of NI with the start of income tax. That will cost another £10bn.

Raab’s total cost to the revenue amounts to £35bn per year.

He has not explained how this will be paid for, except to say that he would use the “no deal” budget. But this can only be spent once, and even so at £26bn still doesn’t cover Raab’s proposal, such a huge amount will of necessity mean cuts elsewhere, and it is difficult to see from where given that everything is paired to the bone with so much now under such severe strain that it is beginning to fall apart.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 12-Jun-19 07:07:25

Gove’s tax proposal

Seems simple enough.

Change from VAT to a lower sales tax.

But this is a high risk to the revenue strategy.
The reason being is that the tax is only paid once the goods are sold to the final consumer. The risk is that businesses will and do claim that they are selling the goods to other businesses rather than the final consumer.
Most countries in the world have now adopted VAT as the preferred tax of choice as it has a lower risk profile. Why Gove wants to regress to a higher revenue risk tax is a mystery..

Whitewavemark2 Wed 12-Jun-19 07:19:43

Johnson’s tax plan

Make the wealthy wealthier to the tune of up to £6000 a year in pensioners case, paid for by raising NI - which is supposed to be a tax for the NHS etc. This would howeve4 only raise some of the cost to the revenue, so he proposes like Raab to spend the no deal budget on that. But we know that this can only be spent once, so it seems these plans are unravelling before birth.

Johnson reckons it will cost £10bn a year, if his figures can be believed.

He seems however to have entirely forgotten nScotland in this scenario, as tax is evolved but NI isn’t, so everyone in Scotland will be paying for English Tax cuts.

Johnson is not available for interview over this or indeed anything as his minders are trying to keep him gaff free.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 12-Jun-19 07:22:22

Interestingly given that Raab and Johnson are keen leave without a dealers, they would need the no deal budget to tied them over the chaos that will ensue I would have thought. So that puts paid to their tax proposals

Bright as buttons aren’t they?