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Channel 4 debate

(180 Posts)
Anja Mon 17-Jun-19 06:49:56

If that load of idiots is the best that’s in offer for the next PM then ‘We’re Doomed!’.

lemongrove Tue 18-Jun-19 11:36:22

No WWM2 I haven’t read all the biographies ( and even then a lot would be left out as too much for the public!)
David Lloyd George was thought to be a serial womaniser and no doubt many others were too, and still are.Other flaws, lying,cheating, bullying and many more will be found if you look closely, it’s human nature and just because a person is in a position of power doesn’t make them immune, in fact it very likely exacerbates flaws of character.

lemongrove Tue 18-Jun-19 11:46:51

I’ve already said I don’t think Johnson would make a good PM ( for many reasons) but the general public have never really known much about earlier politicians and their private lives.Now we know much more.Do members ( of any political party) ignore or set aside the character flaws/faults/peccadilloes of a politician if they think he would make a good leader, or do they choose one that they think is likeable/good role model etc.It’s an interesting thought.Do you think that mainly men tend to the first outlook and women to the second ?

Dinahmo Tue 18-Jun-19 12:06:26

Maxdecatt - Audit reports do not actually contain the word "clean" and it is not in the audit report of the EU accounts. The auditors used the phrase as a means of explaining to the public in general that the accounts comply with normal accounting standards.

I have just read their opinion on the 2017 accounts. They state "in our opinion the consolidated accounts of the EU for the year ended 31 December 2017 present fairly, in all material accordance with financial Regulation and with accounting rules based on internationally accepted standards for the public sector"

They then give the basis for their opinion on the legality and regularity of revenue underlying the accounts which in their opinion is legal and regular in all material respects.

The next opinion is on payments which except for "the matter described in the Basis for qualified opinion" are "legal and regular in all material respects"

Finally they give the basis for their opinion, which I won't bore you with, save to say that they have qualified the accounts because of reimbursements materially affected by error. Their overall materiality level is 2% - the estimated error level for reimbursement is 3.7%

It seems to me that the EU's audit report is no different to that of many other large companies. It goes into more detail (348 pages) but it is what they now call the statement of assurance and supporting information (ie the opinion) that is important.

Sadly the anti EU British papers have seen fit to provide erroneous information each year, in order to stoke the anti EU fire.

Finally, I note that you have refrained from commenting upon my statement about NF's expenses.

GillT57 Tue 18-Jun-19 13:01:42

I do not pass judgement on politicians using recreational or illegal drugs before they were in public office. I am however angered by Gove, as minister for Education,passing legislation that ruined teacher's careers if they indulged in the same recreational and illegal drugs. So much for making a mistake and deserving a second chance. I disliked him before this, but now he is a hypocrite and cannot seriously expect to be responsible for making laws concerning drugs, he will, rightly, have no public or police respect.

Anniebach Tue 18-Jun-19 13:18:37

Were the teachers whose careers ruined taking drugs when they were teachers or when they were students ?

maxdecatt Tue 18-Jun-19 13:30:44

Dinahmo. I did not read to the end of your comment that ended with your dig at NF.
What happened was that his living and accommodation expenses were met by Aaron Banks. How that constitutes an illegality is beyond anyone other than those that want to stir trouble. But, like those that are never happy un;less they are offended ...and who, if they cannot find something to take offence to, simply make it up. Taking offence is an industry these days. If there is money to be gained the offence takers will be at the forefront with nostrils flaring. . Interesting report in the Times today: "60% of Conservatives would like NF as their prime minister". Who would have thought it...not you for sure.Talking about expenses and politicians one need only think back 10 years to find a nest of thieves....all doing their business at Westminster.....across all colours of the political spectrum and from top to bottom .... and what is more they are still at it! Over at the EU the top bracket is torn between a desire to keep Britain in the EU and a desire to say goodbye to NF. They are dead scared of him and now they have him back for 4 years....unless they clear the way for the UK to leave. One thing for NF. He has pride in his country....shame that so many others (you as well?) have no concept of that charateristic.

lemongrove Tue 18-Jun-19 13:30:56

I think there is a difference between a journalist taking cocaine and a teacher tbh.

varian Tue 18-Jun-19 14:26:12

"Nigel Farage vows to leave the UK if Brexit is a 'disaster'"

So much for liar Farage having pride in his country

Anniebach Tue 18-Jun-19 14:50:20

Nick Clegg moved to America , David Milliband lives in America, people do move to other countries

Carillion Tue 18-Jun-19 15:05:39

EllanVannin and have got it spot on. Thank you. Looking forward to tonight's debate only because it is the best entertainment on tonight's TV schedule. Looking forward to The Boris doing his supercilious, manipulative thing.

Carillion Tue 18-Jun-19 15:11:04

Sorry, just discovered there's an alternative to tonight's TV schedule. It's a programme about watching paint dry.

Dinahmo Tue 18-Jun-19 15:38:42

Maxdecatt NF is being fined for claiming for a salary he paid to an assistant who was working as national nominating officer for UKIP and who was paid out of UKIP funds.

I did have great pride in my country but not the UKIP variety. Sadly my pride is being whittled away by the activities of many of my fellow countrymen and women.

maxdecatt Tue 18-Jun-19 16:27:36

Varian. It is only a disaster when the Remainers deny democracy and we are forced to remain in the EU. Until then it is still on the cards that we no need for NF to emigrate and especially as he is likely to be the next full term Prime Minister of the UK. The Brexit Party will win the next general election and as of today 60% of Conservatives voters want him as Prime Minister...(Times survey of today) he will not leave. So your nasty sniping remark is way off the martk...but hey, why let the facts get in the way of your prejudice.

humptydumpty Tue 18-Jun-19 17:13:57

What??!!!!! in your dreams

Elvive Tue 18-Jun-19 17:20:59

Please, I am asking politely what do supporters like about NF and BJ.

It's not trap, I can't be bothered with the bickering. i just want somebody to tell me.

SparklyGrandma Tue 18-Jun-19 17:22:12

I have stopped watching political news, instead I am watching Netflix, the Star Treks are all on it at the moment. It says something that Deep Space Nine feels more realistic than our parliament and U.K. media reporting about it.

varian Tue 18-Jun-19 18:54:10

MEP calls Nigel Farage the 'biggest liar in Europe' during Brexit debate

Sadly the man who runs a close second to liar Farage looks likely to be our next PM.

It is bad enough, surely, that the UK is already the laughing stock of the world, without us confirming it by allowing the second biggest liar in Europe to become our PM.

Iam64 Tue 18-Jun-19 18:55:29

lemon - help me understand why it's different for Govester as a journalist to take cocaine and a teacher? By the way, I'm opposed frankly, to anybody using cocaine. My work experience tells me its a horrible drug. If a teacher uses cocaine in the way Gove says he did, that is occasionally and at parties, the teacher is never "found out", as Gove wasn't and his professional life isn't compromised, as it seems Gove's wasn't, then I don't see the double standard.

I do of course, recognise that teachers are significant individuals in the development of young minds and personalities but so are many public figures, including journalists.

Iam64 Tue 18-Jun-19 18:57:02

Oh for that edit button - and of course, the teacher at 50 is outed and apologises, says s/he regrets ever being such a bad person. By now, the teacher is running a very successful school and has contributed almost 30 years to the education system.
If the teacher is off their face, advising young people to do drugs, that would be a slightly different scenario.

maxdecatt Tue 18-Jun-19 19:06:57

You ask for an explanation of the popularity of Farage and Boris? People like NF because he says the things that they want to hear....but are afraid to say themselves as they do not want to be screamed at by the rabid idiots that stalk this country and want to brainwash you into thinking as they do. These include Labour, LibDem and Green. Farage brings a message that is not what the so-called politcally correct want you to hear. They want you to think they way they think. So Farage gives you the message, the power and the courage to say and think what you really feel.
Boris touches on a sense of nostalgia. He shamblesc about trying to be your Churchill. A good performer but a very shallow individual...he is not a Churchill, but his act fools many. You must hope that he becomes Prime Minister because his government will last just a few months and he will be forced into a general election. Accrding to all the polls Farage will win any general election. In fact today the Times newspaper revealed that in a poll conducted this week 60% of Conservative party members would like Farage to be their prime minister. Now I am sure that others on here will rush in and say Farage is not the answer...but then they have no other answer other than Corbyn and the resulting headlong destruction of Britain under a Labour government. Forget the LibDems and the Greens, they are no-hopers clutching at straws.

Elvive Tue 18-Jun-19 19:13:33

Who are the rabid idiots?

maxdecatt Tue 18-Jun-19 19:20:27

Varian. Which MEP said that? Possibly one of the Tory or Labour MEPs that are no longer MEP's? Farage IS still an MEP, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it. He is called a liar largely by the exposed liars that are no longer MEP's and are now on the sidelines shouting the odds but without influence. Farage is loathed by his opponents (would they include you?) but he has never called himself a Nationalist. He is British and proud of it. Respect him for that, or are you one of those that believe being British is so old hat these days?

maxdecatt Tue 18-Jun-19 19:22:36

Elvive> Idots such as Corbyn, Sturgeon, Cable and those Greens whose names escape me...not that they ever registerd.

Elvive Tue 18-Jun-19 19:46:35

So the rabid idiots are everybody who is not NF, BJ. or the Government?

maxdecatt Tue 18-Jun-19 20:23:37

Elvive. For the truly rabid you must look among the Cornyistas, Momentum and the LibDems.....and any party with the word National or Nationalist in its name.

Anniebach Tue 18-Jun-19 20:31:29

Iam I would be more concerned if my children were taught by a teacher on drugs than reading any article by a journalist on drugs.

Ginny42 Tue 18-Jun-19 20:56:13

I wish posters would stop describing anyone who doesn't agree with them as 'idiots'.

Iam64 Tue 18-Jun-19 21:34:14

Of course Annie, no one wants teachers under the influence.

Elvive Tue 18-Jun-19 21:53:14

so, really I am no further forward with my request.

We have the rabid idiots, the wanna be Churchill and somebody who says what everybody else wants to say but is too pc.

Iam64 Tue 18-Jun-19 22:07:40

Ok maybe we should have a thread on “what I want to say but I’m stopped by the pc brigade”. Honestly, give us a break

Eloethan Tue 18-Jun-19 23:46:43

maxdecatt Your analysis of where the "truly rabid" might be found is intriguing - Corbynistas, Momentum, Lib Dems, Greens, any National/Nationalistic movement.

I think you might find there are some pretty "rabid" admirers of Farage. I recall a "fly on the wall" documentary about UKIP a few years ago and some of his supporters made the most outrageously racist remarks whilst at the same time claiming "I'm not a racist".

We're already some way forward, and gathering speed, on the "headlong destruction of Britain" - and it wasn't caused by Labour.

maxdecatt Wed 19-Jun-19 00:13:06

Yes, UKIP was home to some loons, a lot of loons. Farage saw the way it was going and got out. He only started the Brexit Party because he saw how the parliamentarians were messing about with no intention of delivering Brexit. At least Farage has a clear-sighted vision .....and millions of voters aupported him last month. The Tories, Labour, et al are running scared. The cosy club of "you scratch my back and I scratch your back" sees the writing on the wall. Boris is angling for an electoral pact with the Brexit Party and Farage has said no. The clock is ticking.....on the countdown to the premiership of Farage.

varian Wed 19-Jun-19 08:44:17

The loons in UKIP were actually party members who were allowed to vote for policies, candidates, party leader as is normal in a democratic political party.

This did not suit liar Farage when he did not always get his own way so he left and set up the so called " Brexit Party" which is not a party but a private company which he controls,

The same loons paid money to become "supporters" who have no say. How stupid would you have to be?????

Elvive Wed 19-Jun-19 09:14:32

I see where you are coming from mad.

Economic problems, the end of traditional industries, a widening gap between rich and poor, dissatisfaction and disillusionment with so called leaders......immigrants a handy scapegoat and up pops NF, man of the people/tells it how it is, organises rallies, seizes power from those too weak and stupid to see what's going on under their noses.....seems familiar.

Eloethan Wed 19-Jun-19 09:24:53

He got out only recently - when UKIP began to be associated with Tommy Robinson. He's canny enough to know that associating with a convicted football hooligan and criminal doesn't set quite the right tone for the majority of the population.

He may have a "clear sighted vision" in respect of getting out of the EU but a party that appears to have only one objective - and no policies with regard to what happens after such aim is achieved - doesn't seem to be a sensible choice, even if you like the man, which I don't. Previous comments from him with regard to the NHS and privatisation might give some indication as to the sort of vision he has for the future and, in my opinion, it's not a good one.

maxdecatt Wed 19-Jun-19 09:36:36

Varian. What would you prefer....that Farage remained UKIP and was tainted with policies he disagreed with....or leave and startt something fresh? To go from zero to top of the votes in about three months must tell you something.... the Brexit Party is the future. As to the "private companyt" jibe, you need to understand that the Electoral Commission recognises that the Brexit Party is a legitimate political party....not a front for those with the intention of reducing te UK to a state called "Venezulean". I guess you can work out which party is wanting that.

maxdecatt Wed 19-Jun-19 10:02:50

Eleothan: You ask about policies of the Brexit Party. The party was set up in a hurry to fight the unexpected EU elections. They did that very effectively..... beating EVERY other party..... all of which had "policies" that they change on the hoof if they see a shift in the wind. This time they were asleep at the helm and suffered the consequences. Do you really want any of them at the helm as we steer away from the EU? If so you have a death wish. For general elections political groups publish manifestos, a cobbled together list of small lies, outright lies, white lies and plain old porkies.. Not worth the paper they are written on, but enough to fool the gullible voting sheep. Remember that Tory and Labour swore blind we would leave the EU on 29th March....and then failed to deliver. Was that not a policy? The policy of the LibDems is clear ..... and totally undemocratic. ""Stop Brexit" is their strident cry....never mind that they call themselves the LiberalDEMOCRATIC party. How can you call yourself democratic and then declare publicly that you will not respect the democratic vote of the electorate? Remember the GDR? (The German DEMOCRATIC Republic of East Germany) A prime example of using a mantle of democracy to force uopn the people the complete opposite. It is a fact that those that protest their democratic credentials are the least likely to be democratic.

varian Wed 19-Jun-19 10:30:34

The fraudulent referendum was a corruption of democracy for many reasons. It was ill-concieved and won by lies and cheating. It is true that about 17m out of a population of 66m voted leave but many believed what we now know to be lies and regret being fooled.

Three years later we have learned a great deal and leaving has not been the "will of the people" for a very long time.

Far too many politicians interviewed by the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation are allowed to get away with telling lies like "everyone just wants us to deliver brexit". We don't. We just want to stop brexit before any more damage is done to our country.

Isn't it strange that those who are so sure that they know what the "will of the people" is are so afraid of another vote?

MaizieD Wed 19-Jun-19 10:31:32

you need to understand that the Electoral Commission recognises that the Brexit Party is a legitimate political party....

In order to register as a political party the applicants have to comply with certain regulations, set out here in the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000.

They look perfectly simple to comply with. Registration is not a 'seal of approval' or evidence of the applicant's suitability to 'be' a political party. It's just a legal process.

It certainly is not evidence of a party's 'legitimacy'. That is a value judgement. The Electoral Commission does not make value judgements, it merely ensures that parties comply with the law, both when they register and in their subsequent actions as a political party.

I have to say that it's not worth pushing the 'it's just a Limited Company' angle in debate. I believe that other parties have Limited Companies, too.

Urmstongran Wed 19-Jun-19 10:32:43

I liked this:

“Catnip to Twitter millennials, Rory is paraquat to Tory members.”

maxdecatt Wed 19-Jun-19 10:52:11

MaizieD: Cut it any way you like. To be registererd as a political party is a legal requirement. So it is logical that registration is proof of legality and therefore acceptability.

maxdecatt Wed 19-Jun-19 10:58:49

VARIAN. The Brexit Broadacasting Corporation is guilty of many things, but impartial;ity is not one of them.
The debaye on BBC 1 last night was a prime example. Emily Mathis (?) was supposed to moderate, but all she did was interrupt and steer the so-called debate in the direction she wanted. Why did the candidate meekly sit on those bar stools. Any politician that knows how to address an audience would have stood up and used his full range of gestures and stance. Instead of which they sat like naughty children while Aunbt Emily berated them.

Alexa Wed 19-Jun-19 11:26:28

Emily Maittlis certainly had a difficult job to do. I did wonder why the stage was set with these inelegant bar stools. They favoured Rory the only contender with nice long legs.

humptydumpty Wed 19-Jun-19 11:53:51

Can I re-direct posters to the thread specifically about last night's debate? or important points on both will not be read:

'BBC the next prime minister'

Fennel Wed 19-Jun-19 12:06:26

From what I've heard of it, it was more of a shouting match than a debate.

varian Wed 19-Jun-19 12:26:00

At last Maxd you've posted something I can agree with

Dinahmo Wed 19-Jun-19 12:30:33

Here we go again - millions of people supported the Brexit Party; beating every other party etc etc. The fact is that the pro Remain parties out performed Brexit and UKIP.

maxdecatt Wed 19-Jun-19 13:55:36

Dinahmo: The uncomfortable truth for remainers is that we live in our denocracy where (even one as wonky as ours is) the party that wins the most votes is the winner. So, to use your weasel words that drip with anger, "The fact is" the Brexit Party won hands down...and do remember that they won in a not first past the post election....the EU election was by proportional representation. Something the LibDems have wanted for years. For that reason the LibDems did quite well in the number of seats they won....but nowhere near as many as the Brexit Party that, as a party, polled the largest number of votes by far....and thus won the largest number of seats as legally awarded under PA voting. Proving the point that in UK parliamentary elections (if run on the PA system) they would trounce all the others and Farage would be Prime Minister. I imagine the LibDems will not be so insistent on PA voting once they digest that fact. I fully expect some replies will argue the toss, but to them I say, "You cannot have your cake and eat it".

MaizieD Wed 19-Jun-19 16:53:47

^ So it is logical that registration is proof of legality and therefore acceptability.^

Acceptability is another value judgement. Registration is purely proof that the 'party' is able to satisfy the legal requirements of the PPER Act.

I was, actually, supporting your statement to a certain extent. There's no point in trying to belittle the BP as 'merely a Limited company'. But there is also no point in trying to big it up with value laden terms such as 'legitimacy' and 'acceptability'.

Anyway, a number of us, are, I believe, agog to know what it is that NF says that is non PC and no-one else dares to say. Do tell us.

maxdecatt Wed 19-Jun-19 18:03:30

MaizieD: The world would be a very bland place is we are all are forced to be PC on pain of prosecution, ostracised by the PC brigade, hounded from our jobs, shunned by all simp;ly because we have a brain of our own. With all the noise created by the anti-everything brigade the UK is pretty much that way already. It is called brainwashing...something beloved of dictatorships. Would you prefer to live in a dictatorship or be free to express your thoughts? Maybe you like your life to be run for you..... or is the truth actually that you like to run the lives of others and force them to think like you do.
In short, an enthusiastic supporter of fascism...... would that be your nirvana? Why do you think Eastern Europe threw off the shackles of communism? Did you cry tears of rage when people decided to think for themselves? Do tell us, we are all waiting to hear you declare your support and love for dictators.

MaizieD Wed 19-Jun-19 18:27:32

Very unilluminating, maxdecatt.

Your rant says absolutely nothing.

Can you give us some examples, please?

GillT57 Wed 19-Jun-19 18:33:20

When I read your ill supported, offensive rant maxdecatt I realised just why we are in the mess we are in. You are fueled with hatred, anger and extremely rude dismissal of anyone who doesn't (a) hero worship Farage and (b) wishes to see the country destroyed by Brexit. If you are so certain that this really is the answer, why are you so afraid of the question being asked again?

Whitewavemark2 Wed 19-Jun-19 18:42:14

maxcatt you are providing minutes of entertainment. 😄😄 are you for real?

Fennel Wed 19-Jun-19 18:47:12

He sounds like he's started the apperos too early.

maxdecatt Wed 19-Jun-19 19:09:00

Gilt57, Whitewavemark2, Fennel: I am pleased that you have read my comment, not a rant as some would have it. If you take the blinkers off and carefullyconsider the points I make you will see the logic. Unless of course you are alreadu so brainwashed as to be beyond simple comprehension of what is staring you in the face.
MaizieD: Maybe you can give examples of what you see as wrong with what I say.

Elvive Wed 19-Jun-19 19:09:19

Please for the love of God , direct me to the HQ of the PC Brigade?

Whitewavemark2 Wed 19-Jun-19 19:12:51

Don’t be silly maxcatt you sound about 17 years old.

maxdecatt Wed 19-Jun-19 19:13:46

Gilt57, I have no hatred or anger. What is there to hate about those that have been brainwashed. A feeling of genuine pity for them, yes. But hate? No way!
Anger? Of couyrse not. One cannot be angry with those that know no better. Again, pity is the best way to describe my feelings for them. We must hope for their eventual enlightenment.

Elvive Wed 19-Jun-19 19:15:18

So, mad please outline your hopes for the future with your friends in the driving seat.

maxdecatt Wed 19-Jun-19 19:16:16

Whitewavemark2: You flatter me. As 17 year olds cannot vote it would be presumptious of me to engage in political debate.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 19-Jun-19 19:22:51

Of course it isn’t. This conversation is getting sillier and sillier and I shall end it there.

maxdecatt Wed 19-Jun-19 19:40:36

Elvive: My hopes for the future? A UK where is no poverty, disease is all but vanquished, people in our supposedly first world country are not using foodbanks, where many are homeless, where (according to the UN) over 30% of children live in poverty. Where the ultra rich are free to exploit the system and avoid paying their taxes, where total incompetents can ruin the railways, where schools are critically short of funds, where the elderly face an uncertain future, where social services are fast disappearing,.... Need I go on? I do not belive that Farage alone has the answer, or any answer. But he has demonstrated an ability to shake the political classes to their very roots and to open the eyes of people to an alternative political grouping. I do believe that if the best of the best of our poiltical brains from the full spectrum of political opinion could get together and run the country for the country and not for their party purposes we would get very close to perfection. What do you think? Is that too much to hope for? Also, would it not be a step in the right direction if we stopped giving £14 billion every year in foreign aid. Why do India and Pakistan qualify for millions in aid from us....both squander vast amounts on nuclear weapons, India has a space programme aimed at reaching the moon....more than we can achieve! We give money to Russia, China and every other odious regime on the planet. Trying to win friends and influence people? All we achieve is the impovershment of our own people....refer to the list I made above. By all means give money for disaster relief, drought relief and medical care.... but not for arms and grandiose extravaganzas. The first duty of a government is to look after its own people, anything left over can be dispensed around the world where it may be needed That is what I call a generosity of spirit and a sense of duty. Both lacking in our collective politicians.

Elvive Wed 19-Jun-19 19:49:29

So like, look after our own and stuff the brown people, kinda thing?

Iam64 Wed 19-Jun-19 19:59:17

Ok max, so you want a Labour or Lib Dem government for this country, so public services aren't totally and permanently destroyed. You certainly don't want the Brexit party or Mr Garage to provide any of your initial wish list for this country. He wants to privatise the NHS and doesn't give a fig for the poor.

So far as India/Pakistan and aid go - you're forgetting the debt we owe because of the Empire. We wrecked the Indian economy and drew a line through the country creating two countries. We had some help in the line drawing from the three key Indian politicians involved in partition.

maxdecatt Wed 19-Jun-19 20:11:16

Elivive: If you do not read what I say you will not understand. I was clear in what I think is good foreign aid..... disaster relief such as for famine, flood, fire, medical etc. Unfortunatel those sort of calamities seem to occur to what you call "brown" people more often than to other ethnic groups. btw, the PC brigade will dump on you for saying "brown people". They always see racism where it is not intended. All part and parcel of the "taking offence" industry. I talk from experience, they dumped on me when I talked of Black people. It was horrendous, they wanted to lynch me. I got threats of death and worse. They were so surprised and very embarassed, not knowing where to hide when they found out I am African and my 9 geneations ago grandmother was a slave. She was born to a mother who was a slave, so granny was born a slave as were all her siblings. Maybe that background is why I object to PC spouting liberals going on about political correctness. They think they are protecting us, in fact it is nothing other than an extension of the patronising attitude of "whites" who think they are so very PC and holier than all others and think that all "ethnics" are somehow in need of protection. We do not need such protection, it is patronising and very demeaning to be regarded by some half-wit "liberal" do-gooder as being in need of their hamfisted "protection".

Elvive Wed 19-Jun-19 20:17:00

Who is this bloody Brigade?

Who are " they"

Elvive Wed 19-Jun-19 20:17:40

lynch? interesting word

maxdecatt Wed 19-Jun-19 20:32:56

Iam64: Your first paragraph is not deserving of comment.

As far as the second is concerned I think you will find that the Indian sub-continent was a vast conglomerate of tiny individual states ruled by despots, (Maharajahs) who exploited the people. The arrival of the East India Company changed that and the rule of law was extended across the sub-continent. Then when the Company gave way to the Raj things again took a step forward and that eventually resulted in partition in 1948. A partition needed to keep the Muslims and Hindus apart in order to prevent wholesale slaughte. Thousand died, but total disaater was avoided. India (not so much Pakistan) is now a very succesful nation....thanks to the British influence when the rule of the Maharajahs was ended. You can find faults, of course. But the essence of truth is that British rule created the India of today. Pakistan remains a basket state, but as it has nuclear weapons it is a very unstable basketcase.

Urmstongran Wed 19-Jun-19 20:36:59

This is proving a very interesting discussion and I’m impressed by your opinions maxdecat especially in view of your heritage.

maxdecatt Wed 19-Jun-19 20:40:50

Elvive. The "brigade"....are all those that leap on the bandwagon of politcal correctness. Who seek out things to be offended about...they do not even need to be personally affronted...they simply adopt the perceived offence and treat it as experienced by themselves and stir up others to protest with them. It is also those that "adopt" (usually unconciously) an "ethnic" person and then revel in their self-image, that of being liberal. (Note the small l). In actual fact all they do is annoy us ethnics who resent being patronised and treated as if we cannot think for ourselves or look after ourselves.

maxdecatt Wed 19-Jun-19 20:46:42

Back on the topic. So Rory Stewart has gone. A pity, but as he was a Remainer it would have been divisive if he had gone forward. Remainers cannot in all honesty organise leaving the EU. To try would be basically dishonest. Theresa May tried and failed.

Elvive Wed 19-Jun-19 21:26:59

I think we are all ethnics aren't we?

MaizieD Wed 19-Jun-19 21:46:03

I still haven't found out what the 'political correctness' is all about. Just ranting generalisations. You might know what you are talking about, maxdecattbut without being given some some concrete examples no-one else does. What on earth is 'the bandwagon of political correctness'?

Incidentally, I find your reading of the history of British involvement in India totally ludicrous. I had a strong interest in it at one time and came to entirely different conclusions from you. The civilising influence of British rule? What a laugh....

Iam64 Wed 19-Jun-19 22:09:22

The east India company, other European countries were all involved in exploiting Indian goods to trade for their own profit. The British took over and worked with the Maharajas to profit from silk, cotton, tea and every other thing produced by cheap, exploited mass labour.

A legacy including attempts at political democracy, railways, English language and education systems remain. It’s good that our countries continue to have close and positive links. Nonsense to claim the success of modern India is down to the empire.

lemongrove Wed 19-Jun-19 22:14:48

Well said max very interesting, and I have yet to read anything so erudite from any 17 year old,in spite of*WWM2*’s opinions.Mind you, wouldn't we all like to be that age again? grin

lemongrove Wed 19-Jun-19 22:17:13

I thought Rory Stewart would be out of the race today, and tomorrow Javid will be out I suspect.

Urmstongran Wed 19-Jun-19 22:20:56

Oh well, at least the swimsuit round will be a laugh.

lemongrove Wed 19-Jun-19 22:37:53


MaizieD Wed 19-Jun-19 23:01:44

Well said max very interesting

Which bits did you particularly like, lemon?


A UK where is no poverty, disease is all but vanquished, people in our supposedly first world country are not using foodbanks, where many are homeless, where (according to the UN) over 30% of children live in poverty. Where the ultra rich are free to exploit the system and avoid paying their taxes, where total incompetents can ruin the railways, where schools are critically short of funds, where the elderly face an uncertain future, where social services are fast disappearing,....

I was rather impressed with that and so, I think, would be other posters on here who could reel off the same list.
All caused or exacerbated by the last 9 years of tory government 'austerity' of course... I don't think our solution would be the blessed Nigel, though... Or leaving the EU...