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Johnson and Brexit

(1000 Posts)
Whitewavemark2 Fri 26-Jul-19 08:20:33

In his statement Johnson underlined his pledge to ditch the Irish backstop, and ramp up preparations for no deal, and to leave on 31st October regardless of what happens.

Mays withdrawal agreement has been binned, however in a phone call Juncker signalled the EU27s intention of sticking with the deal already negotiated by the British Government. This includes the backstop.

Juncker told Johnson that the EU would be prepared to alter the political declaration.
Ireland has declared itself as “alarmed”
Barnier signalled that Johnson’s rhetoric almost certainly meant that the U.K. was going into a GE.

Expect a huge public information campaign and a large level of spending in preparation for no deal.

Urmstongran Fri 26-Jul-19 08:46:21

Well I’m reassured by the fact that the very first political person he was seen publicly with was that strong woman, Arlene Foster from N.I. She must have given him the green light. Boris is surrounded by very clever people in his cabinet - Geoffrey (Rumpole) Cox for one.

This will all have been well thought out and been discussed and ruminated over well in advance.

At last, a new approach and we are Leaving. Not before time, in my humble.

jura2 Fri 26-Jul-19 08:47:31

oh my Urmston - you are hilarious (worryingly so, but ...)

Lessismore Fri 26-Jul-19 08:50:58

OMG, the very clever people again. Don't forget the very clever Boris.

MaizieD Fri 26-Jul-19 08:56:59

😀 😀 😀 jura and Lessismore

Luckygirl Fri 26-Jul-19 08:57:08

Is he not listening to the message that the EU are all negotiated out?

lemongrove Fri 26-Jul-19 08:59:04

Actually..... Barnier, after meetings with Johnson some time ago remarked that ‘he was a very clever man’.
I don’t think his cleverness (or lack of ) is why some are worried about his PM ship though.
It would be the smart thing to have a GE soon in any case to increase his majority.

Teetime Fri 26-Jul-19 09:44:26

Let's just get bloody well on with it!

varian Fri 26-Jul-19 09:59:25

I seem to remember Theresa May thought it would be smart to call a GE and increase her majority.

MaizieD Fri 26-Jul-19 10:16:34

Barnier is a diplomat, lemon.

EllanVannin Fri 26-Jul-19 10:18:29

Well I won't be voting for him that's for sure.

He wouldn't have been as keen if the majority had been Remainers, would he ? How would he have handled that ?

Grandad1943 Fri 26-Jul-19 10:21:23

So, it would seem to be that many on this forum now support a General Election as the ultimate and perhaps only way to solve this Brexit crisis.

Does the above mean that those forum members also accept that the grassroots Labour movement activists who placed the "General Election First" at the forefront of the Labour Party Brexit policy at last Septembers Delegate Conference were correct?

In the above, I seem to recall that the same forum members have been full of derisory comments over the last year in regard to that policy, along with many Labour and other Party MPs in the House of Commons.

Indeed, I also seem to recall that whenever Jeremy Corbyn defended and supported that policy he was accused of "sitting on the fence."

The above is especially significant in the light of many that considered those conference delegates as "low born Labour. Pamphlet pushers" are now having to grapple with the fact that those activists are proving to have far greater perceptions than many who consider themselves to be their betters.

lemongrove Fri 26-Jul-19 10:37:09

Things move fast in politics Grandad !
Changing and adapting means surviving. I wouldn't advocate a GE at this moment, but either soon after October ( if we leave the EU) then if the Conservatives win, Johnson and his Cabinet have a clear mandate for all the policies they want to enact.
If Parliament is still tied up in knots and Brexit cannot be achieved by 31st October, then a GE arranged, it would no doubt then be a Conservative government to Leave, and the LP running on a Remain, or second referendum ticket.
But yes, it would be the only way to an increased majority.

Whitewavemark2 Fri 26-Jul-19 10:45:42

The question is whether it will be

No deal then a GE

Or GE then who knows?

I reckon he’ll go for the latter. I don’t think he wants a no deal, I’m unconvinced that he would go for Brexit if he thought his hold on power would go. So nothing is cut and dried.

GrannyGravy13 Fri 26-Jul-19 10:51:55

I fear a general election before Brexit is sorted.

It could open the door to the Brexit Party in predominantly leave areas.

There appears to be no appetite for a GE amongst the general public that I have personally noticed/aware of.

Labour Party is in disarray, Liberal Democrats are on a "remain ticket" and want a second referendum which if it results in another leave vote they will not recognise.

Let's hope the parties take the next six weeks to get their houses in order, and the Conservatives come back in September and quickly implement their pledges re. Police, NHS and elderly care (all of which are vote winners)

Whitewavemark2 Fri 26-Jul-19 10:56:22

I don’t remember anything in Johnson’s statement about social care. Did I miss it?

Sandiiee Fri 26-Jul-19 10:58:11

I still do not understand why, as we are the ones leaving, we have to provide the backstop. Surely if in the eyes of the EU one is definitely needed then Ireland should provide it.

MaizieD Fri 26-Jul-19 11:02:26

Never mind, Sandiiee, just leave it to the clever people to sort out.

GrannyGravy13 Fri 26-Jul-19 11:09:52

WWM2 Boris Johnson stated that no one should have to sell their family home to fund their care.

GrannyGravy13 Fri 26-Jul-19 11:10:53

MaizieD not a very polite response to Sandiiee.

Whitewavemark2 Fri 26-Jul-19 11:11:53


MaizieD Fri 26-Jul-19 11:15:00

I don't feel very polite this morning, GG13.

But you are not the forum monitor either.

MaizieD Fri 26-Jul-19 11:18:38

What I've found so odd about the rapturous reception on here of Johnson's back of a fag packet ideas is, that, had they been proposed by Labour everyone would be screaming with horror and forecasting the downfall of the nation.

GrannyGravy13 Fri 26-Jul-19 11:20:34

I have no intentions of being "forum monitor"...........just disappointed when a thread turns into personal insults, which may and has in the past deterred people from posting.

quizqueen Fri 26-Jul-19 11:39:57

Whatever happens on the EU's eastern borders can happen with the Irish border. You never hear of any disputes about those; no talk of medicines not getting through or traffic jams of trucks, no Albania backstop etc. If the EU insist on borders then let them build a wall.

The EU also welcomed French Dependencies in Africa and elsewhere into the EU and you can be sure there will be no following of EU regulations on those borders. The Irish backstop is just a sham drawn up to prevent us from leaving because they want us to continue paying into their club so their staff can keep their high salaries and pensions.

We can import/export everything we need through Belfast or UK mainland ports, so no need to deal with goods coming in through Dublin at all. As the UK already has the regulatory alignment with the EU, there is no reason why Irish produced goods can't go through the border unchecked, as happens presently.

Whitewavemark2 Fri 26-Jul-19 11:44:39

qq 🤔are you sure? I’d be interested in your sources for this information.

GracesGranMK3 Fri 26-Jul-19 11:53:12

There is a very good article in The Economist this week. I have quoted just one paragraph.

At a time of national gloom, the Tories hope that Mr Johnson’s ebullience will be enough to “ping off the guy-ropes of self-doubt”, as he put it in his jokey acceptance speech. We hope they are right. But in reality, his breezy style seems not so much boldly Churchillian as unthinkingly reckless. To get to Downing Street he has made wild promises about Brexit that he cannot possibly keep. His fantastical approach means he is fast heading for no-deal—and therefore a face-off with Parliament, which seems determined to stop that outcome. Britain should get ready for one of the bumpiest governments in its modern history. It could also be the shortest.

For those who can assess it, it is here:

GracesGranMK3 Fri 26-Jul-19 11:56:42

The Economist also has an article on Why Predicting the Impact of Brexit is so hard which concludes:

Brexiteers argue that most economists are too negative—just as they were about the impact of the vote to leave the EU in 2016. Following a chaotic exit, the Bank of England could radically loosen monetary policy, and the government could ramp up spending or slash taxes. Perhaps. But even the gloomiest economic forecasts only paint a partial picture of what could happen following a chaotic exit. Shortages of medicines, violence at the Irish border, shuttered farms and panicky immigrants might not affect the economy much. But there is more to life than GDP.

humptydumpty Fri 26-Jul-19 11:58:48

Well GGMK3, BJ's main attitude seems to be 'let's all be optimistic for a change' - never mind that small and annoying thing called reality.

Joelsnan Fri 26-Jul-19 12:02:18

The Economist has become less realistic and newsworthy than the Beano.

growstuff Fri 26-Jul-19 12:12:36

The ignorance regarding the Irish border is quite astonishing. I wouldn't expect primary school pupils to know much about it, but I thought this was a forum for adults, who have presumably had access to the news over the last 50 years.

GracesGranMK3 Fri 26-Jul-19 12:13:35

I think you sum it up nicely humptydumpty

JenniferEccles Fri 26-Jul-19 12:15:33

How about the empty supermarket shelves leading to mass starvation?

The Economist missed that idiotic scaremongering one didn't it? !

GracesGranMK3 Fri 26-Jul-19 12:16:08

Strangely Joelsnan, I trust their knowledge of these things rather more than I do yours.

Opal Fri 26-Jul-19 12:17:25

Never mind, Sandiiee, just leave it to the clever people to sort out.
You obviously think of yourself as one of the "clever people" MaizieD. Shame your intelligence doesn't stretch to realising that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
I am sick of remainers on here who think they are intellectually superior to leavers.
Sandiiee - you posted a good question regarding the Irish backstop, is there anyone who can give an informed answer without resorting to sarcasm?

growstuff Fri 26-Jul-19 12:23:37

Opal, it really isn't that difficult to Google the situation with Ireland.

Opal Fri 26-Jul-19 12:33:10

growstuff - we can Google anything, I thought this was a forum for discussion and debate. Sandiiee asked a relevant question, she didn't deserve a sarcastic response.

Labaik Fri 26-Jul-19 12:36:15

'Let's just get bloody well on with it!'..and your solution to the Irish border problem is ?

humptydumpty Fri 26-Jul-19 12:36:44

Actuaklky I must admit that I thought Maizie's comment was simply a joke, quoting from Ug's earlier post...

Labaik Fri 26-Jul-19 12:42:28

'Well I’m reassured by the fact that the very first political person he was seen publicly with was that strong woman, Arlene Foster from N.I. She must have given him the green light. Boris is surrounded by very clever people in his cabinet - Geoffrey (Rumpole) Cox for one. ' Oh for heavens sake; she just wants to know how much of a bribe he's prepared to give her this time to keep him in power....[so much for taking back control when the Tories are controlled by the DUP; am I right in thinking they don't have control in their own country #imaybewronghoweverneedto googleit

GracesGranMK3 Fri 26-Jul-19 12:55:51

I must admit "Opal" I was left wondering what Sandiiee thought the 'backstop' comprised and just how she thought Ireland could provide it. Maybe she has it muddled with Trump's wall? People do seem to be making decisions based on emotion when the obviously lack some of the basic knowledge. Personally, I don't care what you are "sick of". Those with little knowledge are not only prepared to change our country to, they believe, suit themselves, but are prepared to take existential decisions which will affect the other half to two thirds of the country.

Davidhs Fri 26-Jul-19 12:56:45

If he cannot get a deal or a “no deal” through parliament he and his cronies believe they can win a GE. Judging by the performance of JC in parliament they are right, most of his reply at question time he appeared to be reading from a script, very uninspiring.

As for the Irish border, there won’t be one, nobody wants it north or south, any controls will be at the Irish Sea ports, there will have to be some, or migrants and contraband will get into mainland Britain

GracesGranMK3 Fri 26-Jul-19 12:57:31

They not the

varian Fri 26-Jul-19 13:04:23

It does seem extraordinary that those who campaigned to "take back control of our borders" now say that our only land border with another country will be uncontrolled!

Opal Fri 26-Jul-19 13:13:10

GGMK3 - Those with little knowledge are not only prepared to change our country to, they believe, suit themselves, but are prepared to take existential decisions which will affect the other half to two thirds of the country.

How do you know what leavers' "level of knowledge" is? Your condescending attitude is sadly typical of some remainers, though not all. And the majority (52%) taking decisions which will affect the minority (48%) is called democracy.

Whitewavemark2 Fri 26-Jul-19 13:27:41

So the contentious issue of the Backstop. Due to come into force in 2020. It is to ensure that the border remains open whatever the outcome of future talks.

This will continue to allow the free movement of goods between the two Ireland’s. Farmers see it as the only proposal that will allow them to continue prosperous trading. Farmers on both sides of the border lobbied extensively for a backstop, as did the haulage industry.

Both the EU and the U.K. have insisted that they don’t want a border. Johnson is of course insisting that there is technology that can deal with the border, but I haven’t seen any evidence anywhere in the world that can do this. We also have to consider illegal immigrants, drugs, illegal substances etc etc.

The EU of course is as we know a single trading entity, so only needs borders between the single trading entity and third countries. We will be a third country, so they will require a border as they do between every other country bordering this single entity.

The EU only works because it sticks to the rules that have been agreed between participating countries. It is a rule based entity. These rules will not be airily dismissed as inconvenient.

Grandad1943 Fri 26-Jul-19 13:28:15

Davidhs Quote [ If he cannot get a deal or a “no deal” through parliament he and his cronies believe they can win a GE. Judging by the performance of JC in parliament they are right, most of his reply at question time he appeared to be reading from a script, very uninspiring. ] End Quote.

Davids, Theresa May believed that Jeremy Corbyn's performance as leader of the Labour Party would give her a landslide victory in the snap General Election she called in 2017.

However, starting from a twenty point plus lead in the opinion polls at the beginning of the election campaign, she went on to lose her overall majority in the House Of Commons.

The above was the start of her troubles with her own Tory Party and the beginning of the end for her as Prime Minister.

If Boris (The Buffoon) Johnson wishes to repeat the above, then "bring it on" many activists in the Labour party will shout, I am sure

jura2 Fri 26-Jul-19 13:32:50

oh come on, Sandiee was the one to first say 'OMG the clever people' - which was sarcastic and rude...

As for the comment on Ireland providing the Back Stop - well, there is NO possible answer to that, is there. It is mind boggling.

Labaik, re Teetime's comment - same question.

Grandad1943 Fri 26-Jul-19 13:43:12

Davidhs Quote [As for the Irish border, there won’t be one, nobody wants it north or south, any controls will be at the Irish Sea ports, there will have to be some, or migrants and contraband will get into mainland Britain] End Quote.

Davidhs, there will have to be controls on the Irish North/South border in the event of a "No Deal" Brexit to prevent goods which do not meet EU standards entering the European Union. The technology to have those control procedures in place without stopping vehicles does not exist at present, and would take several years to bring forward.

As usual, it is all "pie in the sky thinking" by Buffoon Johnson and his rabid Brexiteer Supporters.

jura2 Fri 26-Jul-19 13:43:25

It is absolutely clear that ERG wanted No Deal from the start- due to new EU regs on tax havens - that was the whole point from the start for them. They are currently pretending to ask for a New Deal, with No Backstop- knowing full well it cannot but be rejected by the EU. They are just playing silly pretend games- so they can then pretend to blame the EU for intransigeance. I am amazed this is not clear to all ...

It won't be long - the consensus is out there that Boris and his gang of extremists will very fast be hoisted by their own petards...

POGS Fri 26-Jul-19 16:03:09


Why do you think Boris Johnson voted FOR the UK/EU Withdrawal Agreement?

Urmstongran Fri 26-Jul-19 16:14:44

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Whitewavemark2 Sat 27-Jul-19 11:03:07

We are all aware of the rise in child poverty and the cost of alleviating the problem.

The U.K. has received millions of pounds to do just that from the EU.

Guess what?

We are giving £3.4million back having not the wit nor willingness to spend it.

This government has never earned the right to govern

Yorath0 Sat 27-Jul-19 11:24:03

A more prosperous UK outside the EU

By JOHNREDWOOD | Published: JULY 26, 2019

Over the next few days I will publish pieces setting out how we can use our new found freedoms and spend our own money after 31 October when we are scheduled to leave the EU.

One of the important wins will be to resume our full voting membership of the World Trade Organisation. Once out we will decide our own tariffs for imports into the UK. We can exercise this freedom to take all tariffs off products we do not make or grow for ourselves, providing cheaper food and clothes for UK consumers.

The EU imposes average tariffs of 5%, with an average 11.8% tariff on food. Dairy products are charged at a high 38.1%, fruit and vegetables at 11.5% and sugar and confectionery at 23%. Why shouldn’t we enjoy cheaper oranges and lemons from countries like South Africa, and cheaper wines from Australia and New Zealand?

The UK government has already set out a provisional tariff schedule, and has decided to abolish all tariffs on imported components, providing a welcome boost to UK manufacturing.

The EU will decide whether the UK must pay the external tariffs it charges the USA, China and others on their exports to the EU, or whether to negotiate a free trade agreement to avoid tariffs both ways.

Either way there are plenty of UK trade opportunities. EU tariffs in certain areas are too high. They are an unwelcome tax on the consumer, designed to protect continental farmers and producers at the expense of growers and makers elsewhere in the world. We should bring those down as we leave.

jura2 Sat 27-Jul-19 11:30:58

'Why do you think Boris Johnson voted FOR the UK/EU Withdrawal Agreement?'

because this is the way is bread was buttered at the moment... and because he knew he could afford to do so, knowing she would not get the numbers.

Grandad1943 Sat 27-Jul-19 11:46:02

John Redwood another looking to see how much money he can personally make out of Brexit. Being he is already a multi-millionaire, it is obvious that any amount of money is never enough to any number of Tory MPs.

However, I have to say that John Redwood and Jacob Rees Mogg should sit very well together in this Boris the Buffoon government, with their "personal wealth for me" agenda.

Labaik Sat 27-Jul-19 11:47:45

Isn't it John Redwood that advised people to invest their money abroad?

RosieLeah Sat 27-Jul-19 11:49:53

Well said, Opal. I'm not going to add anything to the 'discussion' but it does seem to be very one-sided. I find it hard to understand why the majority on this site seem to be 'remainers' and yet the country as a whole supports our leaving the EU. That suggests that either, the 'leavers' on here are afraid to speak their minds or they are in the minority. It would seem to be the latter.

varian Sat 27-Jul-19 11:53:08

Redwood was paid £250k last year for a part-time job advising Charles Stanley investors. His advise was to take all your money OUT of the UK.

With their funds safe in some tax haven, investors will be able to pounce like vultures and buy up the assets of all the people and businesses which will inevitably go bust as the pound would tank if brexit is not stopped.

It is called "disaster capitalism". and JRM's father wrote a book about it.

Labaik Sat 27-Jul-19 11:54:00

I really don't find the leavers on this forum afraid to 'speak their mind' and, numbers wise I'd say it's about 50/50 [bit like the referendum really....and I would dispute the fact that the country, as a whole, supports Brexit; 52/48 isn't 'the country as a whole [imo]….

varian Sat 27-Jul-19 11:57:34

The 52/48 split related to those who voted in the fraudulent referendum more than three years ago. There is no evidence that "the country as a whole supports our leaving the EU", and that has not been the case for most of the last three years.

MaizieD Sat 27-Jul-19 12:00:48

One of my consolation readings is Dr Richard North's daily blog on Brexit. North was a founder member of UKIP and actually produced a detailed, and probably workable, plan for a gradual withdrawal from the EU over a period of a decade (which has been ignored). He has been in despair over the mess that our government has created over the past 3 years.

But apart from all that, he absolutely knows about EU regulations and laws. Not only does he have working knowledge but he co-wrote a book about the EU, so well researched.

He blogged on the matter of the Irish border very recently; it was part of a critique of the recently published Alternative Arrangements Commission (AAC) report.

The sticking point for any wild ideas of inspections away from the border, scanning of lorry contents, trusted trader schemes, et al is the need for physical checks (known as Sanitary and Phyto-Sanitary (SPS) checks ) on live animals, plant material, etc being transported across the border. I'll try to pick out the relevant parts of a long blog post.

First, his critique of the AAC report's suggestion:

In this, we can cut to the chase with an important example that we have rehearsed before, represented by the sixth recommendation which asserts that, "Sanitary and Phyto-Sanitary (SPS) checks should be carried out by mobile units away from the border using the existing EU Union Customs Code or a common area for SPS measures".

It really does say something of all these "23 technical experts" that they are all prepared to put their names to an extraordinarily basic error, in lumping SPS checks with the Union Custom Code (UCC)

Anyone with any serious acquaintance with the EU's application of SPS checks, through its system of Official Controls, will know that these are framed and implemented outside the UCC, and do not depend in any way on the code. In fact, for relevant products, customs control cannot start until SPS clearance has been given, fees have been paid and the appropriate certificates have been issued.

And the reason why these checks cannot be done away from the border:

Of course, no more does this apply to their recommendation that SPS checks "should be carried out by mobile units away from the border", which relies on claimed "geographic flexibilities", which they the AAC asserts are "allowed in the Union Customs Code and BIP Regulation". These, they claim, permit the border authorities, "to move any facilities away from the border and to use mobile units to conduct checks where possible".

It is another mark of the utter amateurism of the AAC that, in addition to miscasting the UCC (which makes no reference to SPS checks, much less affording any "geographic flexibilities"), the "23 technical experts" allow the reference to this "BIP Regulation" to stand. As I pointed out earlier, there is no single BIP Regulation as such.

But even if there was, the law cited, Commission Decision 2009/821/EC isn't it. This Decision makes no reference whatsoever to the criteria for siting what are currently known as Border Inspection Posts (BIPs). For the law currently in force, one must go to Council Directive 97/78 which requires, apart from certain very limited exceptions, BIPs be located in the "*immediate vicinity of the point of entry*" into the territory of the Member State

This is Regulation (EU) 2017/625 which repeats the requirement that the newly designated Border Control Posts (BCPs) should be located "in the immediate vicinity of the point of entry into the Union". And supplementing this law is Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) 2019/1012 which does allow limited "geographic flexibilities" arising from certain geographical constraints But, as the recital sets out:

Geographical constraints should be those that result from the natural characteristics and landscape of the point of entry, and the distance from the point of entry should not exceed what is strictly necessary to overcome the difficulties caused by the geographical constraints. Furthermore, that distance should not be such as to pose a risk to human, animal and plant health, animal welfare and the environment. Specific geographical constraints should include those that may cause major transportation constraints like, for example, high passes with roads unsuitable for the movement of animals and goods or causing significant delays in their movement.

Not with even the wildest of imagining can the law be taken as permitting the use of mobile control teams, where the only reference to their application is for visiting teams to deal with "unprocessed logs and sawn and chipped wood" in multiple BCPs. For the rest, Article 47 of Regulation (EU) 2017/625 requires official controls to be carried out on the relevant products "at the border control post of first arrival into the Union"

The whole blog is here for anyone interested in technical detail rather than optimistic assumptions:

If anyone thinks that this can be airily dismissed as no being important can wave goodbye to any trade in agricultural and horticultural products with the EU.

And remember that the installation of any hard structure on the NI/Ireland border is a target for trouble because of the breaking of the GFA.

RosieLeah Sat 27-Jul-19 12:04:32

So, Varian, why was it that the Brexit party did so well in the European elections? IMO, that election acted as a second referendum....the result is that the country is still split. My point is that the members on this site don't seem to reflect the country as a whole.

MaizieD Sat 27-Jul-19 12:05:55

Oh, hello, a new poster.

Hi there Yorath0. How long will you last?

MaizieD Sat 27-Jul-19 12:10:28

My point is that the members on this site don't seem to reflect the country as a whole

Members aren't obliged to post on here just to keep the numbers even.

varian Sat 27-Jul-19 12:16:02

The country is still split RL. The Brexit Party may have done well in the EU elections, but more people voted for parties which support Remaining in the EU.

POGS Sat 27-Jul-19 12:43:32

"Oh, hello, a new poster.

Hi there Yorath0. How long will you last?"


Urmstongran Sat 27-Jul-19 14:00:33

MaizeD you do seem a bit out of sorts?

Thank you for an excerpt from Dr North’s blog. I wonder if Boris and his team have read it? I hardly understood half of it. All those rules and regulations! A lot of E.U. red tape and as we all know by now they are very keen on that.

Fair enough.

Two thoughts:

Would’ve thought a UKIP founder could be so clever? I remember some posters on GN being castigated for being supporters of that political party. Seems they placed their trust in academics after all!

And my second point.

I know I get laughed at when I say clever people are on the case of Brexit but I truly believe there are some in team Boris.

This Dr North won’t be the only person in the U.K. aware of difficulties.

Negotiations may yet work to facilitate a new WA. Obviously we can’t force the EU to bend it’s rules (though it does do so when it suits them as has been demonstrated in the past!). But the ball is in their court now. They aren’t dealing with Theresa the Appeaser or Olly Robbins. Do a deal or not, it’s over to them.

If not, we walk.

With No Deal.

jura2 Sat 27-Jul-19 14:44:31

We are no-where ready or able to deal with No Deal ...

varian Sat 27-Jul-19 15:21:18

The head of the UK's biggest charitable funder of scientific research has written to the new Prime Minister Boris Johnson backing his vision of a thriving science sector, but warning that leaving the EU without a deal is a "threat to that". In a letter, seen by the BBC, chairwoman of the Wellcome Trust Lady Eliza Manningham-Buller, asks the new PM to up investment spending in science to German levels, and to ensure that immigration policy was "more welcoming" to top scientists.

The Wellcome Trust is responsible for £1bn of funding a year, and should be a key part of Boris Johnson's vision of the UK as a "science superpower". Its chairwoman told the BBC that while she agrees that there is a great prize to be grasped she is anxious about the damage she says Brexit has done to recruiting scientists.

"While we do collaborative work of course with the US and areas outside Europe, Australia, Singapore, other countries - and those matter - the vast bulk of the collaborations are with Europe. "And if we amputate them, or make those collaborations difficult or harder to do - we will be the loser," she said.

Urmstongran Sat 27-Jul-19 15:27:01

I saw that on the news jura it was concerning . Then I remembered who has been in charge thus far!

Full steam ahead though now with Boris and his Cabinet. A totally different ‘can do’ positivity with a new Chancellor who will open the purse strings for No Deal. Unlike Hammond. No wonder things didn’t get done!

Opal Sat 27-Jul-19 15:37:56

So Dr Richard North is an expert on all things EU, especially regulations and laws. And as an expert, he decided to become a founder member of UKIP? So what does that tell you? That people who have expert knowledge and experience of the EU and its dealings believe that we would be better off outside it? Surely not …….

jura2 Sat 27-Jul-19 15:55:19

Did you listen, really listen, to what he is saying. No amount of 'can do'attitude can do what he is describing, in just a few weeks.

Yes Varian- I have mentionned this before- perhaps the greatest loss in a post Brexit Britain- will be the massive brain drain of amazing scientific and medical research. Not just from foreign researchers, but our very own - as they won't be able to continue the research projects without the team work and the funding from the EU.

Grandad1943 Sat 27-Jul-19 16:22:53

Urmstongran Quote [ Full steam ahead though now with Boris and his Cabinet. A totally different ‘can do’ positivity with a new Chancellor who will open the purse strings for No Deal. Unlike Hammond. No wonder things didn’t get done!] End Quote.

So, when Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party speak of opening the purse strings, that in the view of many forum members will "financially ruin the whole British economy.

However, when Boris (The Buffoon) Johnson and the Tory party speak of opening the purse strings to mitigate this Brexit crisis they have created, that will save the whole British economy.

Some people have some very strange one-sided perceptions.

And Totally Rediculas.

Labaik Sat 27-Jul-19 16:31:12

If a plan for withdrawing from the EU had been put forward at the referendum with a sensible timescale plus a solution to the Irish problem I would have accepted the result of the referendum. As it is, there isn't a single Brexit supporter that I have any respect for or faith in. Tim Wetherspoon/Dyson spring to mind. Many Brexit supporters have relocated to other countries. As for all this money that is now available, why did we have the austerity cuts that fuelled the support for Brexit. Johnson is promising the sort of things that nearly made me vote Conservative a few years ago; none of which came to fruition. He hasn't even consulted people on many promises; the police haven't got the means to train and recruit all of the promised 20,00 police [which will still only bring us back to the numbers before they were cut by, I presume, May when she was Home Secretary].

jura2 Sat 27-Jul-19 16:36:16

Matthew Paris talking here about the massive new positive enthusiasm by so many- and how it came about

Urmstongran Sat 27-Jul-19 16:43:22

Ooh good point Opal I didn’t join up those dots!

FarNorth Sat 27-Jul-19 16:44:30

Donald Tusk's letter to Boris Johnson :

Urmstongran Sat 27-Jul-19 16:44:44

Matthew Paris is a well known ardent Remainer like Phil Hammond. Too gloomy for me to want to read jura but thank you anyway.

Urmstongran Sat 27-Jul-19 16:45:17

Parris. Damned auto correct.

Urmstongran Sat 27-Jul-19 16:47:44

Boris wants to spend and energise. Corbyn would spend and ruin the country. I don’t trust them - remember Diane Abbott’s costing of those extra Police? Sheesh!

jura2 Sat 27-Jul-19 16:48:10

No need to read- just watch - he truly makes sense.

POGS Sat 27-Jul-19 16:52:03


'No need to read- just watch - he truly makes sense.'

How have you watched Matthew Paris?

Opal Sat 27-Jul-19 16:55:38

Thanks Urmstongran - have you noticed that none of the remainers on here have responded to my previous post? Maybe they can't explain why an EU expert is also a UKIP founder??? hmm

suzied Sat 27-Jul-19 16:57:52

Why, when criticising the current regime do some folk think only in binary terms - Boris is marvellous, Corbyn is crap, - doesn't really address the issue. Johnson is only recruiting police to regain the numbers before the cuts made by.... the Tories. It will take several years to recruit and train extra officers- many training staff have been cut, plus they have to fill the gaps from normal retirement. It wont happen overnight, Announcing unfunded pay rises is not giving anything extra. Boris is talking the talk, but if its anything like his previous record he doesn't always walk the walk. £350m a week for the NHS anyone? Despite all the bluster it is still government by the rich, for the rich. Why we are at it EU funds for the poorer regions in the UK have been rejected - why? talk about cutting off your nose....

suzied Sat 27-Jul-19 17:00:42

Opal I think you'll find that many experts on European law and the EU are committed remainers, what does that tell you? As for praising someone who is a founder of UKIP - is he still a member?

jura2 Sat 27-Jul-19 17:01:34

POGS the link is in my post ...

suzied, I certainly do not see the Brexit issue in binary terms as you describe, for sure.

Lessismore Sat 27-Jul-19 17:03:35

Yes binary, things are so much more binary aren't they?
A sad loss of diversity and free , independent thinking and questioning.

Oops sorry back to my leftie cave now. Surely there must be people to trample over and Marxists here somewhere?

MaizieD Sat 27-Jul-19 17:04:35

And as an expert, he decided to become a founder member of UKIP? So what does that tell you? That people who have expert knowledge and experience of the EU and its dealings believe that we would be better off outside it?

I don't think you read my post completely, Opal. Dr North was (and still is) a Leaver but he understood just how very complex leaving would be. He has absolutely no problem with the Single Market and the Customs Union, he wanted to remain within them; he realises that regulation is absolutely essential to the effective running of the market and has no problem with it. I gather, from what I have read of his work, that his objections were to the political aspect of the EU. He is absolutely dumbfounded by the UK's wish to commit economic suicide by removing itself from the Single Market and the Customs Union.

I see Dr North as a pragmatist. He has no illusions about leaving being just a matter of with holding money and shouting loudly at Brussels. His aim was to leave sensibly with least disruption to the UK economy and prestige.

But then, he's the sort of expert that Leavers dislike so much.

MaizieD Sat 27-Jul-19 17:06:52

As for praising someone who is a founder of UKIP - is he still a member?

He isn't. I don't think he liked the direction they were taking.

Best to read his blogs, really. I just dip in and out of them.

MaizieD Sat 27-Jul-19 17:09:16

P.S Opal. I doubt if anyone else on here has heard of Dr North, let alone read any of his work. I've only just responded because I've been out all afternoon.

jura2 Sat 27-Jul-19 17:20:20

Indeed Maizie, which is why I did not respond. Thanks for the info.

I suppose many of us remember the 'no-one in their right mind would even consider leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union' (where is he now, anyone knows?)

jura2 Sat 27-Jul-19 17:33:09

Daniel Hannan, that is- he was all over the news during the Campaign- with all those who have now seriously changed their tune. No-one, but no-one - campaigned on a No Deal ticket- not even Farage, not even Boris - NONE of them.

GracesGranMK3 Sat 27-Jul-19 18:41:32

I find it hard to understand why the majority on this site seem[s] to be 'remainers' and yet the country as a whole supports our leaving the EU. (Sat 27-Jul-19 12:04:32

So how are you defining "the country as a whole" RosieLeah?

It sounds very much as if you are seeing half the country (or two-thirds by another measure) as no longer citizens. But then I do think this is exactly how some Leave voters see us, stripped of our citizenship and all its rights for not agreeing with them. Perhaps that is why they are so rude and insulting.

Perhaps, just as in the past they have been persuaded to see us as "less than". I have just seen us described as cockroaches on another forum - only a small step to rats.

crystaltipps Sat 27-Jul-19 18:52:18

Well 17 million voted for Brexit, yet we’ve got a population of 66 million, so that’s not the whole country is it? About 70% don’t want Brexit or aren’t that bothered. Seems like some believe that if you shout loud enough people will think you speak for everyone. Stop believing the Faragist lies.

Boosgran Sat 27-Jul-19 19:51:45

It was 17.4 actually.

GracesGranMK3 Sat 27-Jul-19 20:18:51

One of the important wins will be to resume our full voting membership of the World Trade Organisation. (Sat 27-Jul-19 11:24:03)

What is the advantage of this? I am sure Yorath0 that you understand as well as I do that John Redwood is extremely biased when it comes to leaving the EU or remaining in it. So I looked for a more impartial report. "The costs and benefits of leaving the EU: trade effects"[1] is a long and interesting report and worth reading. It will certainly take you away from the "we are right, they are wrong" view although I appreciate you may not be open to such an argument.

What it does tell us is that the general welfare of us all will be affected negatively by twice as much if we have a hard Brexit and move to WTO rules as we would if we had a soft Brexit although, of course, that would also affect us when compared to staying in.

Obviously, there are perceived benefits to leaving outside the downside of these economic losses. But I do not see any argument for this which would not equally support a reform of the EU.

[1]The costs and benefits of leaving the EU: trade effects by Swati Dhingra, Hanwei Huang, Gianmarco Ottaviano, João Paulo Pessoa, Thomas Sampson, John Van Reenen

GracesGranMK3 Sat 27-Jul-19 20:31:38

It was 17.4 actually. [Sat 27-Jul-19 19:51:45]

So are you suggesting that 17.4 million is "the country as a whole", Boosgran because that is what we were trying to determine? The total number of UK Parliamentary electors in December 2018 was 45,775,800.

Boosgran Sat 27-Jul-19 20:56:13

No, don’t be silly. I’m simply stating that the number of people that voted to leave was 17.4 million and not 17 million. 🙄

GracesGranMK3 Sat 27-Jul-19 21:49:33

Boosgran Sat 27-Jul-19 20:56:13

Don't be personal. I am not being "silly" in wondering what you thought that added to the conversation but you are being rude.

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