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Outrage at Tory rhetoric

(61 Posts)
Dinahmo Sun 11-Aug-19 09:33:54

Watching the news this morning I became increasingly outraged at the Tory rhetoric. The Tories reduced the police force by over 20,000 between March 2010 and March 2018 but BJ is going to find the money to recruit 20,000.

Pritti Patel is talking about increasing stop and search. I lived in Brixton during the riots in the 80's and the behaviour of arrogant young policemen and the practice of stop and search at that time was one of the causes.

I just don't understand why the public believe the Tories. We've had austerity for more than 10 years which led directly to much of the disaffection that we've been seeing. The current front bench have been around for some, if not all of that time so why didn't they speak out then?

BJ is talking about building more prisons, giving money to the NHS (already earmarked), more money for schools etc etc. the current front bench have been in parliament for some, if not all, of the Tory administration. Why have they done nothing to change Tory policies and why are they doing something now?

B~J is talking about giving money to companies that suffer after 1 November. They don't need to suffer - just cancel it.

Luckygirl Sun 11-Aug-19 09:45:33

I will believe it all when I see it. He may not be in power long anyway - a GE soon is inevitable.

growstuff Sun 11-Aug-19 09:54:48

I can't honestly seeing a GE solving anything, at least not in the next few years.

cangran Sun 11-Aug-19 09:55:10

Well said Dinahmo. I am also astonished! Oh but, all is well as apparently a new Brexit 50p is being minted - that should be worth about 5p!

GillT57 Sun 11-Aug-19 10:04:23

I share your outrage. I wish they would stop talking about 'recruiting additional 20000 police officers' when the more accurate statement would be '' reinstating the 20000 police officers which we should not have cut'. As for all this hang em and flog em populist claptrap from P Patel, it is as if their manifesto is being written by Katie Hopkins. Await nasty comments about benefit cheats as the next announcement

winterwhite Sun 11-Aug-19 10:53:39

Yes, benefits cheats must be due for another airing soon. Today it is thousands more prison 'beds' when so much of the problem is too many people imprisoned unnecessarily and prison sentences often being ineffectual anyway.

Septimia Sun 11-Aug-19 10:59:05

I don't understand why people believe the Labour party either - or, in fact, any politicians. They're all there for their own aggrandizement bar a very few good'uns.

Grandad1943 Sun 11-Aug-19 11:08:33

It always amazes me that these sudden on the hoof billions of pounds spending announcements by this Tory government is being portrayed by the right wing mass media as an act that will save the British economy.

However, when the Labour party speaks on their spending plans that is portrayed by the mass media as an act that would totally ruin the British economy.

As we all witness almost every day on this forum there are many who believe every word they read in the United Kingdoms rabid right-wing media.

Beyond belief. 🤔

growstuff Sun 11-Aug-19 11:08:34

I don't think many people (certainly on Gransnet) are Labour supporters.

Sorry, but I also think the idea that all MPs are rogues is very UKIPy/BPy and part of the "Parliament versus the people" rhetoric.

growstuff Sun 11-Aug-19 11:10:18

It's actually insulting to all those who have suffered from austerity since 2010 to give the message that they've suffered in vain.

Minniemoo Sun 11-Aug-19 11:15:48

Not sure that people who disagree with you Grandad are all devotees of right wing newspapers. That's a very simplistic way of thinking.

Just like I'm sure you don't get all your idea from the Guardian. What we have to accept is people have different opinions and we should respect that rather than rage at them.

Surely you don't want to live somewhere where everyone has to think the same?

growstuff Sun 11-Aug-19 11:19:49

There aren't many newspapers which aren't right-wing, so if people follow newspapers (either a physical paper or online), the chances are that they do read a right-wing newspaper.

I've never seen evidence that Grandad doesn't respect other people's opinions, despite having very strong views.

Minniemoo Sun 11-Aug-19 11:25:27

I didn't actually say that Grandad was disrespecting anyone. I said we. As in all of us.

I see a lot of disrespect and rudeness directed towards those who maybe be right wing than the other way round. Not only on this forum. It's strange because the left claim to be the tolerant ones.

I think that the issue is that on threads like this it becomes almost a dangerous sport to even suggest that you might quite like Boris and Brexit. So people stay away because they get accused of being racist and liking Farage (which is NOT true) and it becomes unpleasant.

So instead of having reasoned debate it will just consist of all of you who agree with each other which is fine.

growstuff Sun 11-Aug-19 11:26:59

I see a lot of people who don't like their views being challenged and then cry wolf when they are.

growstuff Sun 11-Aug-19 11:28:04

PS. Some of them are racist and like Farage. I wish GN wouldn't delete the racist posts, so people can be shown up for what they are.

Minniemoo Sun 11-Aug-19 11:30:51

I don't see that at all. I just see people saying 'where's your evidence'. It's an opinion. People have opinions. You shouldn't have to back up your opinion with 'evidence' You trot out your experts and say how much you believe in them but there are other experts who disagree with you.

Nobody here can make any difference whatsoever on the outcome of all this.

I am personally of the belief that a No Deal Brexit might not happen.

And I also dislike condemning a group of people who don't agree with me. I wouldn't do it.

Minniemoo Sun 11-Aug-19 11:33:37

I quite agree growstuff. Many of Farage's fans are guilty as charged. Many will come out and blatantly admit it. I've been accosted myself by that sort of person.

But not everyone who voted for Brexit did so for that reason. And certainly not everyone who voted for Brexit would have voted for Farage. Which needs to be accepted.

RosieLeah Wed 14-Aug-19 11:44:19

Minniemoo....I wish there were more like you....so reasonable and accepting that we don't all think the same way.

I voted Leave and when someone asked me why, I made the mistake of giving an honest reply. My post met with outrage and was deleted. The fact is, that many people feel the same way I do but know better than to voice their opinions. The people on this site don't like honesty, even if it is regarded as 'racist'...which actually it wasn't. They don't know the definition of the word.

growstuff Wed 14-Aug-19 11:50:35

Yes, it was.

growstuff Wed 14-Aug-19 11:51:44

Since when have you even tried to understand or accommodate the views of people who disagree with you?

SirChenjin Wed 14-Aug-19 12:13:56

Your post was met with outrage because it was racist Rosie - don't try and pretend it wasn't. It was a horrible comment and showed you in a very poor light, and if you believe that others on here think the same as you then they should also be ashamed of themselves too.

Back to the OP - I agree. Quite why so many people blindly accept the claims made by the Tories without questionning the figures is a mystery.

varian Wed 14-Aug-19 19:07:18

Boris Johnson has accused MPs "who think they can block Brexit" of a "terrible collaboration" with the EU.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49348072

This is yet another shocking use of war-time rhetoric, portraying our EU partners as "the enemy" and those of us (the majority of the popultation) who oppose brexit as "collaborators"

Outrageous and utterly disgusting manipulation of the English language for sordid political ends. No doubt it will go down well with the Daily Mail, Express and The Sun.

Opal Wed 14-Aug-19 19:28:59

those of us (the majority of the popultation) who oppose Brexit - have you personally asked every member of the British public? No, you haven't. Ridiculous statement.

Minniemoo - your posts are the most sensible on here. Sadly, there are some remainers on Gransnet, though not all, who are not prepared to listen to others' opinions. And if anyone dares to disagree on these threads, they're called racists because they supported Leave. According to these particular remainers, if you voted Leave, you must be a racist, or a fascist, or both.

mumofmadboys Wed 14-Aug-19 19:30:30

I think we already imprison far too many people in this country. We should be trying to reduce our prison population rather than increase it. We need investment in youth services, drug education, treatment and rehab and invest in jobs for our school leavers.

varian Wed 14-Aug-19 20:37:07

I have not personally asked every member of the British public what they think but I have noted that the overwhelming evidence of a very large number of opinion polls for more than two years has consistently shown that the majority of the British public want the UK to Remain in the EU. So not a ridiculous statement

whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-remain-a-member-of-the-european-union-or-leave-the-european-union-asked-after-the-referendum/

Luckygirl Wed 14-Aug-19 21:16:26

mumofmadboys - you are right about more emphasis needing to be placed on preventive services within the community - youth services have been cut to the bone; and mental health services for young people too - so many of the young prisoners are mentally ill or drug addicts.

I speak as someone who has a very close (adopted) relative who is in prison - this young person should never have got to the point where he finished up there if the services to treat his Aspergers and foetal drug/alcohol syndrome had been there. His sad troubled life has led him to be where he is at the moment, where he is being sold drugs, suffering extortion of money with menaces, being physically abused by the prison drug pushers - how can this happen you might ask? Indeed so - all this is happening under the noses of the prison officers who, one must assume, are in cahoots with it. Have we tried to get this sorted by reporting to the authorities? - indeed so. Did it get us anywhere? - no.

So - something has to be done. Maybe money is part of the answer; but governments giving a toss might also help.

mumofmadboys Wed 14-Aug-19 23:02:21

That must be heartbreaking luckygirl. I have worked in the prison system. There are so many folk with learning difficulties and mental illness. I used to see the new admissions on a Saturday coming in on remand from the courts. One lad I saw had no-one to tell he was going into prison because nobody cared less. Sad beyond words.

GagaJo Wed 14-Aug-19 23:15:05

Unfortunately the Us and UK are currently swinging right-wing. In the US, I think it's a racist reaction to Obama (who I shamelessly worship).

Unfortunately here in the UK we haven't even had the intervention of a wonderful left-wing govt.

So much moaning about dishonest self serving politicians and when we DO get an honest one, he's reviled.

Boris is racist, sexist, homophobic. I can't believe he's our PM. I can believe he's going to drag us into Brexit regardless of the consequences. God help us all.

paddyann Wed 14-Aug-19 23:26:18

I spoke to a policewoman who had been a prison warder for 15 years before joing the police.She said that there were folk in jail simply because they had no homes or support outside it.That she had a lot of prisoners who would be convicted on a Monday and sentenced to 28 days ,,they would be released on a Friday and she knew without doubt they would be back on the next monday She said she had a great relationship with them because she understood where the problem was.Thats why she moved to the police force to see if being on the same streets as these guys could make a difference.

In Scotland we have more police on the streets now than 10 years ago and the intake at the college is a steady number ,all ages from 18 to 50 something this year ,People from all walks of life lawyers and ex military included .There are also many more women ,its been said that a 5 foot woman can diffuse a situation easier than a6foot man and it seems that it does work.Crime is at a 40 year low here with violent crime in particular knife crime a real success ,there wasn't a single death from knife crime in Glasgow in 2017 .I dont have last years figures yet . Yes Police Scotland have had some issues but its steadily settling in now as with all new institutions do ..it just takes time .Hopefully the successes will continue

crystaltipps Thu 15-Aug-19 06:00:25

If people make racist comments they should be called out, and not hide behind “everyone agrees with me” statements. Leave supporters complain about being labelled racist, but they should therefore challenge racist views made in their name and not just deny their existence, do you really think there are no racists in the U.K. who have used Brexit as a legitimate cover for their hate? Yes they do exist, I’ve seen and heard them.

Davidhs Thu 15-Aug-19 07:54:54

It’s good that deaths from knifecrime is reduced in Glasgow but gun crime has doubled and drug deaths have increased, so it’s not an especially safe haven.

Daisymae Thu 15-Aug-19 08:50:46

I find it incredible that with the NHS in its knees, police stretched, schools cutting hours, etc that this government seem to imply that it's nothing to do with them when in fact its been their own policy for 10 years! If only there were a credible opposition.

Greta Thu 15-Aug-19 09:35:35

Daisymae, I'm afraid I no longer find it incredible. Lies – and subsequent denial, cheating, blaming others, manipulation, covering up – all is legal tender.

I read an apt statement some time ago: Quote: Politics is not a profession that encourages moral reflection or insight. “The ends justify the means” is good enough for most practitioners. End quote.

Urmstongran Thu 15-Aug-19 10:30:26

How about prison being a deterrent for a novel idea? No phones, no drugs, no automatic halfway releases (which was probably a cost cutting exercise anyway). Rehabilitation? Don’t make me laugh. Habitual offenders prove that liberalism towards the criminal fraternity isn’t working. It’s time to get tough and keep our streets safer.

Greta Thu 15-Aug-19 11:15:26

Urmonstongran: Habitual offenders prove that liberalism towards the criminal fraternity isn’t working. It’s time to get tough and keep our streets safer.

But, Urmonstongran, the opposite appears to be true. The UK compares unfavourably with Scandinavia and the Netherlands when it comes to the number of people being sent to prison, rehabilitation and reoffending rates.

I believe that the Scandinavian countries are much more focused on equality in society. They have excellent childcare facilities which ensure that children get a good start in life. Also, there is an expection that fathers get involved in caring for children, they share the responsibility. We have done the opposite and cut support for families. Nobody is born a criminal. For some young people life presents many problems that they themselves cannot solve. If there is no safety net, no support network we should not be surprised that many get abused and drawn into criminality. I am certainly not saying that the Scandinavians have all the answers but I do believe we could learn from them.

Pantglas1 Thu 15-Aug-19 11:21:50

It may be better than UK prison rates Greta but nowhere near Colchester, the Forces ‘glasshouse’ prison which is around 10% and the set up there is as far from ‘liberalism’ as you can get. They must be doing something right.

humptydumpty Thu 15-Aug-19 11:35:48

OP this is blatant vote-buying IMO ahead og a GE and designed to spike LP's chances.

growstuff Thu 15-Aug-19 12:15:18

The inmates of HMP Colchester aren't typical, as you well know.

growstuff Thu 15-Aug-19 12:17:42

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23793619

growstuff Thu 15-Aug-19 12:19:29

My mistake. Colchester isn't even classified as an HMP.

Pantglas1 Thu 15-Aug-19 12:19:57

You’ll need to expand Growstuff- typical of what exactly?

growstuff Thu 15-Aug-19 12:21:25

Read the article I linked, which explains why.

Pantglas1 Thu 15-Aug-19 12:29:26

I agree they don’t call it a prison but criminals go there after sentencing for rehabilitation and training. It is not a liberal regime and the reoffending rate is a lot less than a liberal regime so they must be doing something right.

Greta Thu 15-Aug-19 12:51:38

Pantglas1,
This is an extract from www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-43243247:

Quote: In practice it rarely exceeds 180 detainees, most of whom have breached military rules rather than criminal law, and usually holds about 50 inmates.

The chief inspector of prisons, Peter Clarke, said: "It was refreshing for HM Inspectorate of Prisons to inspect a training centre where drugs and violence were virtually unknown and where the culture is incredibly positive, forward-looking and not at all punitive”. End quote

If it is ”not at all punitive” perhaps it can be described as more liberal, wouldn't you say?

Pantglas1 Thu 15-Aug-19 12:57:33

Try asking any member or ex member of the armed forces where they would prefer to serve their sentence, Scandinavia prison or Colchester to see which is liberal and which is punitive.

growstuff Thu 15-Aug-19 13:12:37

You cannot compare Colchester with normal prisons in the UK.

Firstly, inmates haven't necessarily committed crimes. They have been guilty of breaking military laws, such as insubordination.

Secondly, on average they do not have the problems with mental health and literacy, which are common in civilian prisons.

Thirdly, there is an emphasis on "correction" and rehabilitation and they aren't locked up for 23 hours a day. Yes, the regime is tough, but as military personnel, they will be used to a tough life. However, there are courses available, so if they are discharged from the forces, they have a chance of finding employment. Civilian prisons just don't have those resources available.

It might not be a bad thing if other prisons followed Colchester's example, but it would take a massive increase in prison officer numbers. I haven't seen any hint of the financial input which would be necessary.

Have you ever asked a member of the armed forces whether they would prefer to be in Colchester or an HMP?

Greta Thu 15-Aug-19 13:13:25

Pantglas1, if you are not willing to compare like with like your posts are pointless.

Pantglas1 Thu 15-Aug-19 13:19:41

Greta - you made a huge deal of Urmstongran comment on tougher sentences and threw in the liberal Scandinavia prisons and their better reoffending rates.

My point with introducing Colchester was that they had the lowest rates without the liberal regime and now you you don’t like it so who exactly is pointless?

Growstuff - I’ve answered your point in my last post.

Greta Thu 15-Aug-19 13:43:07

Pantglas1, It would be interesting to hear your definition of ”not at all punitive” (said about Colchester).

I do not feel I made a ”huge deal” of Urmstongran's comment. Yes, I did compare our prisons with those in Scandinavia and tried to shed light on their belief in ”catching them young” rather than ”lock them up” when it is too late. You think that was unfair. Are you saying then that if somebody makes a comment we should just say ”Amen to that”?

Pantglas1 Thu 15-Aug-19 13:59:51

I don’t agree with the statement that Colchester is ‘not at all punitive’. My point being that it IS more punitive with less ‘perks’ than UK and (according to you) Scandinavian prisons and with the much lower reoffending rate.

Greta Thu 15-Aug-19 14:41:57

The chief inspector of prisons claims Colchester is "not at all punitive". He must have some idea what he is talking about but perhaps you also have insight knowledge of prisons.

I still believe prevention is better than cure.

Greta Thu 15-Aug-19 14:54:37

My mistake: "inside knowledge"

MaizieD Thu 15-Aug-19 16:32:26

Perhaps Pantglas could explain what is punitive about the regime at Colchester. I have found an HMIP report from 2014 but it doesn't detail the regime.

Though I think that, as growstuff and others have said, Colchester is very different from the normal run of prisons. I don't see how they can be compared.

growstuff Thu 15-Aug-19 16:33:29

Colchester "prison" is known as a "corrective training" centre, not as a prison.
Pantglas, I don't see that you've addressed my points at all.

MaizieD Thu 15-Aug-19 16:40:52

It is a prison, really, growstuff, it just has a different title. But, as you have rightly pointed out, the general run of its inmates and the reasons for their incarceration, is very different from an HMP.

growstuff Thu 15-Aug-19 17:03:26

Yes, I know, Maizie, but some of the inmates don't meet the threshold for actions which would be considered criminal in civilian law.

The emphasis is on correction rather than retribution.

The biggest difference, however, is that everybody has been in the forces. Whilst not everybody will be highly academic, there won't be many with the very poor literary skills of many in normal prisons and the forces weed out anybody with obvious mental health problems. The prison population has a high percentage of prisoners with very poor literary skills and mental health issues.

MaizieD Thu 15-Aug-19 17:26:48

Not disagreeing with you, growstuff.

There is absolutely no comparison between the military and the civilian establishments, apart from the fact that they deprive offenders of their liberty.

varian Sat 17-Aug-19 16:02:13

The language used by the self-proclaimed "war cabinet" led by prime minister Johnson is so hostile that it could be labelled 'propaganda used in the time of war". Without any regard for good relations and domestic peace, they lie, accuse and discriminate. A new low for freedom.

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/peter-littger-on-germany-s-view-of-boris-johnson-1-6213584

annodomini Sat 17-Aug-19 16:47:04

If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the 'truth'. The latest lie now being repeated is that when people voted to leave, they chose to leave without a deal. They did no such thing, but this is being touted by such trustworthy individuals as Dominic Raab and several others in the so-called cabinet.

Greta Sat 17-Aug-19 17:34:58

I can't remember no-deal being discussed during the referendum or the Irish backstop for that matter. However, I do believe that there were leave-voters who were so ignorant (naive, if you want to be kind) that they did believe we could just 'leave' the EU; they way you leave a restaurant after a meal.

No, I don't believe all leave voters fall into that category. But the lack of understanding among some voters was extraordinary.

Grandad1943 Sat 17-Aug-19 17:50:41

Dominic Grieve has stated that he has received death threats as a direct result of Boris Johnson calling politicians who support Britain remaining in the European Union collaborators with the EU.

What Johnson stated had within it an echo of the rhetoric used towards those who engaged with and supported the German National Socialists during the second world war.

Johnson has refused to retract or apologise for what he has stated and therefore that means he does not realise the significance and dangers of what he has said. The forgoing must mean that Boris Johnson is an even larger Buffoon than already many credit him as, or he is promoting a deliberate policy to divide this nation even further than it is divided already.

How can any reasonable person who resides in Britain continue to support this man?