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Boris's plans to deal with violent crime

(69 Posts)
Fennel Tue 13-Aug-19 16:01:28

As far as I understand it, he plans to increase the number of prisons to deter those involved in gang/violent crime.
Apart from the financial and staffing practicalities, do you think this is the answer?

Smileless2012 Tue 13-Aug-19 16:11:51

Yes, apart from as you say the financial and staffing practicalities. Longer sentences too if there are prison places available.

EllanVannin Tue 13-Aug-19 16:25:39

Why the need for more prisons if the plan is to deter crime/violence ?

RosieLeah Tue 13-Aug-19 16:36:41

The long-term answer to cutting crime is to tackle it where it the young. I live in a rough area and crime is bred into this people. All over the country, there is a problem with juvenile nuisance, but little is done. The children get away with minor things and move on to more serious stuff. The police know this, but they have to work within the law.

We need to go back to having bobbies on the beat. At the moment, the police are only there after the crime has been committed and the culprit is long gone. Yesterday, there was a knock on my door, and there stood a large policeman. My first thought was..'What have I done'...but he had come to discuss something I reported 3 days before! A minor incident which I reported on-line...and yet, when three boys broke into the building and were threatening us...I called 999 and they were too busy to come out!

Smileless2012 Tue 13-Aug-19 16:43:10

Facing a custodial sentence for committing a crime is a deterrent, or at least it should be.

I agree RosieLeah but I do wonder if the younger members of society all have the respect that we had at that age for the police.

Fennel Tue 13-Aug-19 16:56:53

Personally I think prison only hardens those who have offended.
There used to be an idea, from America I think, of bootcamps to teach them survival skills and productive social interdependence.
But perhaps things have gone too far now for that. And we haven't got the space there is in America.
We need more police too, as above.

kittylester Tue 13-Aug-19 16:59:04

We some how have to break the cycle dont we. I'm not sure this does!

paddyann Tue 13-Aug-19 17:04:33

prison doesn't work.Reducing crime should be the aim ,not increasing prison beds.The Prison population in the USA is massive and it doesn't deter anyone .
Prison sentences for minor/unviolent or a lot of other things should be changed to something more productive ,Sending some young people to prison just puts them in company that corrupts rather than helps them change for the better

Smileless2012 Tue 13-Aug-19 17:11:50

So what would you suggest paddyann? We see a lot of people doing community service, in fact if it wasn't for them all the work that's been done in the cemetery near us wouldn't have happened.

The restoration of old head stones has received awards and the cemetery looks beautiful.

varian Tue 13-Aug-19 17:21:15

England and Wales already has the highest prison population per head of population in Western Europe.

Penal policy should be evidence based and all the evidence points to the failure of the present regime in terms of incidence of re-offending, which is the most appropriate measure of success. Terms of imprisonment of less than six months are particularly counter-productive.

Instead of dog whistle policy announcements aimed at the right-wing "lock em up and throw away the key" voters, a responsible government would take measures to ensure that prison sentences are appropriate and effective.

There are four separate reasons for sending someone to prison- punishment, deterrence, rehabilitation and protection of the public.

In my opinion protection of the public is the only good reason to imprison an offender if other measures are proven to be more effective.

crystaltipps Tue 13-Aug-19 17:42:54

Agree with the above. Locking people up for longer doesn’t stop crime. The tories have cut police and prison officer numbers, not to mention help for struggling families, youth services, help for those with mental health and drug and alcohol problems. All these are linked to crime. An acquaintance of mine’s husband was sent to prison for a first time white collar, non violent offence. He was locked up for 23 hours a day, no education or other services, he spent some time in a high security prison at vast cost as there were no places elsewhere. A complete waste of time and money, he could have paid his debt to society in a far more constructive way. A high % of those in our prisons have been through the “care” system, lack basic education are more likely to have mental health, drug or alcohol problems. With fewer staff inside there is little hope of rehabilitation.yes, our prisons should have far more resources, staff, and effort put into protecting the public and re-education.

GillT57 Tue 13-Aug-19 17:51:50

By the time people are in the court system it is too late, investment needs to be in stopping them committing the crimes in the first place. Money which has been cut in the funding of sure start centres, youth initiatives, drug programmes etc. This big blustery talk of prisons and sentencing is aimed at a certain group of voters, probably Mail and Express readers and is cynical and manipulative like most of the recent announcements

winterwhite Tue 13-Aug-19 17:52:44

I was horrified to read of Pritti Patel saying she wanted potential criminals to feel 'terror' at the thought of being arrested. This is the UK. This is 2019. That seems to me to amount to hate talk in itself.

Custodial sentences for juveniles need a far greater element of training with much better post-release co-ordination onto schemes run (I suppose) by the probation services.

Other relatively inexpensive solutions would be restoring youth services and providing much more in the way of support services for parents of 10-15s.

In the longer run of course sufficient affordable housing and enough new funding for schools to enable them to keep exclusions down, with proper alternatives for excluded children.

Day6 Tue 13-Aug-19 18:14:15

I do think the victims of crime tend to get a rough deal because we almost shrug now that nothing much can be done. If we go down that road criminals win and crime then pays.

I fully support Boris regarding his thoughts that we do have to become tough on crime, have a more visible police presence and get the message out that those who commit crimes will be a) caught and b) punished accordingly.

It's all very well to sniff and say this is a Tory policy and so find fault but I do think we have to do what we can to create a UK where people feel safe AND supported in their own environment. Criminals should not call the shots and if that involves them being caught because of a larger police force and put behind bars for longer because we have more prison spaces, I have no problems whatsoever with that.

Day6 Tue 13-Aug-19 18:19:28

This big blustery talk of prisons and sentencing is aimed at a certain group of voters, probably Mail and Express readers

Oh dear. Typical left-wing Guardian reader.

I'd hope the talk reaches the ears of victims of crime too, some of whom read the Observer, Mirror, i, or the Guardian

This is not a left or right wing matter, unless of course you imagine it's OK to have criminal tendencies and for leniency to be the order of the day? If you support policing and coming down hard on those who break the law you are automatically right wing and/or read the Mail?

That's a new one. hmm

dragonfly46 Tue 13-Aug-19 18:20:00

In the Netherlands they spend more money on rehabilitation than on prisons. As a result there are far fewer reoffenders and prisons have actually been closed.

growstuff Tue 13-Aug-19 18:22:45

Not very new.

varian Tue 13-Aug-19 18:29:24

Being a victim of crime does not inevitably make someone a reactionary advocate of "tougher prison sentences" Day6.

I don't know whether you have been a victim of crime but I have and my main concern is to advocate policies which will lessen the chances of you or anyone else becoming victims of crime. We can only do that if we adopt rational evidence based penal policies.

MaizieD Tue 13-Aug-19 18:48:50

It's all very well to sniff and say this is a Tory policy

If you read the posts before sounding off, Day6 I think you'll find that posters are saying the the problem is in part the fault of past tory policy of cuts in the services which are related to crime prevention and the rehabilitation of ex-prisoners. I suspect, that cuts to the prison service itself, and privatisation of prisons, doesn't help, either.

But Johnson's announcement is undoubtedly specifically aimed at a certain demographic. Those who don't recognise that there is a balance to be had between respect for the victims of crime and attempting to rehabilitate criminals. It isn't one thing or the other.

crystaltipps Tue 13-Aug-19 18:49:12

I think most people have been victims of one crime or another, “coming down hard on those who break the law” doesn’t mean locking up for longer and longer sentences. Surely it’s better to prevent so many crimes in the first place, making sure those who do commit crimes get caught and are given sentences which mean they are less likely to repeat the offence, and make a contribution to society in one way or another. This means - more police on the streets, more help for those with mental health, drug and alcohol problems, help for families with difficulties, more emphasis on education and rehabilitation inside. We have the biggest per capita prison population in Europe and it doesn’t seem to deter crime. Still, if we are becoming a vassal of the USA we’d better copy their penal system. That works.

GillT57 Tue 13-Aug-19 19:01:52

day6. As you like. I am not a leftie Guardian reader, but one only has to look at the headlines in the red tops to see what I mean. If you choose to misunderstand my point there is little I can do about that.

quizqueen Tue 13-Aug-19 19:04:32

I am very happy to be separated from criminals by bars and I don't care how long they are in there for as long as it's a long, long time. The innocent public should be the priority here, not the offenders.

Day6 Tue 13-Aug-19 19:18:52

a reactionary advocate of "tougher prison sentences

There is NOTHING reactionary in wanting the punishment to fit the crime, is there?

I fully believe we have to 'temper justice with mercy' (as the Bard believes) but there have been a number of cases over the years when sentencing of serious crime has been extremely lenient, for no good reason.

Our prisons should try to rehabilitate offenders -I firmly believe in that - but sadly trying to deter young criminals when all they know in family life is criminality and no sense of right from wrong means the state has to pick up the tab for any remedial work - much of which is totally ineffective.

Very few criminally inclined young people go straight because because they are able to have a game of table tennis on a Tuesday night down at the community centre. When their mates are hanging around outside with drugs, alcohol and the spoils of a few burglaries they find each other.

I agree, we should try to show them how life can be different, but sadly, like always tends to gravitate towards like. Family life is important but sadly many of the criminally inclined come from homes where dishonesty and substance abuse are a way of life.

Not sure how you break that cycle because very few have Damascene experiences because of intervention and go on to a dramatically change their attitude or actions. The intervention is needed at the mother's knee. How do we teach people to be honest and good, concerned parents?

I believe in helping young people to make the most of their opportunities, especially if they come from disadvantaged backgrounds but you also have to change the company they keep as well, and that's a gargantuan task, if not an impossible one.

I don't see that a 'deterrent' stance, such as the one BJ is going to initiate is a bad thing. It's probably long overdue, in truth. I think we can all agree that crime/lawlessness isn't going to improve society and we cannot allow it to flourish because we don't have the people power on the streets and in the judicial system.

sharon103 Tue 13-Aug-19 19:22:42

I agree with you quizqueen
I also think a life sentence should mean life.

growstuff Tue 13-Aug-19 19:23:13

How many people who have been locked up for crime do you actually know personally, Day6?

They don't all conform to your stereotype.

varian Tue 13-Aug-19 19:25:43

Thank you quizqueen for that classic example of uninformed opinion on "law and order" typical of the ultra-right.

You cannot even give a minute to considering whether this "lock em up and throw away the key" policy has ever worked or could ever work to reduce offending.

It is typical of the simplistic thinking which has lead to the brexit nonsense and so much else which has gone wrong in our country thanks to the influence of the Daily Mail, Express and The Sun.

Day6 Tue 13-Aug-19 19:27:07

You'd be surprised growstuff

Do stop making arrogant assumptions. hmm

I don't have a stereotype but you obviously see me as not knowing anything about the criminally inclined or indeed of having any dealings with them either.

varian Tue 13-Aug-19 19:32:04

What Works to Reduce Re-offending: A Summary of the Evidence

Day6 Tue 13-Aug-19 19:36:33

It is typical of the simplistic thinking which has lead to the brexit nonsense and so much else which has gone wrong in our country thanks to the influence of the Daily Mail, Express and The Sun

Oh be careful Varian That was rather imperious.

People might accuse you of seeing anyone who disagrees with you as stupid or a reader of certain papers.

Your sentence sums up the arrogance and blinkered thinking of Remainers. You really do fit the sneering, short-sighted remainer model who dismisses anyone who believes and thinks differently. hmm

Fennel Tue 13-Aug-19 19:37:19

"The criminally inclined" -
Day6 I don't see the young people involved in these violent gangs, even if drugs are involved, as criminally inclined.
When I was that age I belonged to a 'gang'. But TG our activities were more adventurous than criminal.
But there are more sophisticated influences on young people at work now.

varian Tue 13-Aug-19 19:40:44

There is a huge difference between a person who forms their opinions based on facts, evidence, research and their own experience and a person who believes exactly what they are told to believe by the right wing tabloids.

All of us, I imagine, have friends or acquaintances with different opinions. Some deserve respect and others do not.

growstuff Tue 13-Aug-19 19:50:53

Before the last GE, I went to the hustings, when all the hopefuls face questions from the general public. When asked about the Tory reduction in police numbers, the Tory candidate first denied there had been a cut. Then, she claimed that the numbers weren't relevant and the number of police officers has no relevance to crime or the number of solved crime.

So what's the truth? Far be it from to suggest that my (now) MP was lying through her teeth.

growstuff Tue 13-Aug-19 19:52:20

Ahem! And I wonder which model you fit, Day6.

growstuff Tue 13-Aug-19 19:53:41

I wasn't making any assumptions, Day6, nor was I being arrogant.

I was asking a question.

growstuff Tue 13-Aug-19 19:55:00

And you're not a very good mindreader.

All I can do is judge you by what you write and what you have written suggests you're prone to stereotyping.

Fennel Tue 13-Aug-19 19:55:43

I've just found this on the Independent's website:
"Boris’s “new” proposal to create 10,000 new prison places was, in fact, announced by Michael Gove three years ago, albeit cushioned by the slightly fluffier language of “rehabilitation”."

EllanVannin Tue 13-Aug-19 19:59:55

This is all too little too late and nothing will work.

GillT57 Tue 13-Aug-19 20:17:51

Did anyone else see the BBC news tonight about 'county lines" and the exploitation by drug dealers of vulnerable children in the so called care system? It would make you weep, or it should. The supervised housing (outsourced) was shameful and it looked disgusting and the police officers were in despair as they are the front line social and mental health service. The people at the top of the drug business need to be dealt with because of the misery and exploitation but no amount of 'bang them up and throw away the key" will solve the problems that these rejected and overlooked children suffer.

growstuff Tue 13-Aug-19 21:48:51

Why am I not surprised, Fennel?

Interesting though it proves that my (now) MP really was lying through her teeth.

Was it Gove's predecessor, Chris Grayling, who wanted to ban prisoners from having books? That'll teach them!

varian Wed 14-Aug-19 11:47:32

A barrister warns us Johnson's plan to lock up more criminals is a con:-

"This is why I am angry. Not because I’m a “lefty” inherently resistant to Boris Johnson’s white hot public service reforms. I’m angry because as a prosecutor I am still having to sit down with crying witnesses week after week and explain that their torment is being prolonged for another six months because the government refuses to pay to keep courtrooms open. I’m angry because the Innocence Tax – the policy that forces the wrongly accused to pay privately for their legal representation and then denies them their costs, bankrupting them, when they are acquitted – is not even in the political peripheral vision. I’m angry because our Prime Minister is a man who looks at the record rates of death, violence, suicide, overcrowding and self-harm in our prisons and whose first question is, “How do we get more people in there?”. I’m angry because the notion that you “crack down on crime” by chucking a few more police officers onto the streets and shoving more and more people into our death-riven prisons is a con. It is a con to victims of crime, and it is a con to you, the public. I’m angry because we have the indignity of a dishonest, cowardly and exploitative Prime Minister fiddling with his Party’s g-spot while the criminal justice system burns.

Don’t fall for his con trick."

Fennel Wed 14-Aug-19 12:01:20

Very strong stuff, varian.
That's how I feel too, though his feelings must be much stronger than mine.

winterwhite Wed 14-Aug-19 12:34:26

"Let's hug a hoody" was also once Tory policy. Whatever happened to that?

GillT57 Wed 14-Aug-19 12:57:13

An eloquent and informative article varian but sadly it will be disregarded and probably rubbished as leftie nonsense by the lock em up brigade. I would stake my house on this information not being published by the Mail and Express or the Borisgraph.

Iam64 Wed 14-Aug-19 12:57:43

varian, many thanks for your contributions to this thread, especially for the link to the research and to the Secret Barrister's views.
The evidence hasn't changed since I started work with offenders in the late 70's. The next 40 years I worked with children and families, most families had an adult who'd been in prison and many had children involved with the youth justice systems.
The evidence says, countries who put money and expertise into early years are likely to have less drug/alcohol/mental health or crime than those like ours, that come on after offending/anti social behaviour has started to attract the attention of the authorities.
Boris Johnsons and Priti Patel are appealing to people who aren't interested in research, or what actually works and helps society.
Short prison sentences don't work. They're often the last resort for drug addicted mothers who have worked their way through alternatives to custody. They get 3 months hmp. Unless they have family to step in, their children go into foster care, often separately as finding places for 3 - 6 children and keeping them together is almost impossible. The emotional damage done to these vulnerable family units is immeasurable, although we can predict those children will become "known" to the criminal justice system.
Put money into prevention, into early years, into supporting vulnerable parents. Bring back youth clubs, relationship building between area social work teams and the families they're there to support. Re-open the family centres, the drug and alcohol treatment services. Yes, have more police officers and teams of social workers, probation officers and community police officers working together.
By all means have long sentences for dangerous offenders. But don't think returning to Victorian bread, water and cruel regimes will rehabilitate them.
We could learn a lot from the Netherlands.

varian Wed 14-Aug-19 13:04:31

I did hear some time ago that The Netherlands also had an innovative regime of sending inmates nearing release home at weekends and using their cells to lock up minor offenders such as football hooligans for 48 hours starting on Friday evening for a few weekends. That way they could keep their jobs, homes and families whilst being punished and experiencing prison, which might act as a deterrent.

EllanVannin Wed 14-Aug-19 13:20:59

I'm angry because numerous requests for files/documents from Essex police, which were withheld 34 years ago, have been ignored. Despite 2 court orders also requesting same.
This is in connection with a MOJ.
Sajid Javid has also ignored letters/requests sent to him.

The prisoner who has been incarcerated for 33 years can't get legal aid so donations/funds have had to be set up in order to pay for forensic scientists, lawyers and QC's who are working behind the scenes.

This has been and continues to be the most disgusting form of so-called justice in disallowing new found evidence to be delayed because of shortfalls in funding.

I'm confident that in the not too distant future that the said prisoner's sentence will be quashed and he'll walk free, but I'm sure those who put him where he is will continue doing their damnedest to ignore this issue because of what the cost will be in releasing him as a MOJ !

A bad example of our justice system !

JenniferEccles Wed 14-Aug-19 13:28:37

I do believe that prisons need to be run on a tough unpleasant regime so that criminals actually fear being sent there.

At the moment they are run more like holiday camps.

If that is coupled with more police on the streets to act as a deterrent surely that would help.

I totally agree with Prity Patel’s statement that criminals need to feel terror in the same way that their actions can terrorise their poor victims.

The namby pamby attitude isn’t working is it?

GillT57 Wed 14-Aug-19 13:57:01

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

GillT57 Wed 14-Aug-19 13:57:46

Sorry Varian, not avriananger made the type errors.

Bossyrossy Wed 14-Aug-19 14:08:07

The Office for National Statistics shows that some types of crime have decreased while others, such as knife crime, have increased. The later quite rightly receives a lot of publicity and perpetrators need to be punished but we need to tackle the causes of crime if we are to see a drop in all criminal activity. Poor housing, the withdrawal of support for families, children and young people in need, cuts in education budgets, these are the things that we need to spend money on if we are to see a reduction in all crime, not building more prisons.

growstuff Wed 14-Aug-19 16:01:35

I've never been to a holiday camp, but if they're anything like the prison cells I've seen, I think I've had a lucky escape. :-(

suzied Wed 14-Aug-19 17:06:09

I don't think anyone who's actually been in or visited a prison would actually call them a "holiday camp". Staff shortages mean prisoners are often locked upper 23 hours a day, with no association. Yes many have TV and or radio in their cells, but without them the staff would be unable to cope. Drugs and smuggled mobiles are rife in prisons - why? because of so few staff they cannot do regular cell searches. Education opportunities are very patchy, yet many of those inside have very low literacy skills, and there is little or no chance of rehabilitation. Better staffing and training in prisons would mean staff would have the chance of influencing some of the inmates, rather than just containment.

JenniferEccles Wed 14-Aug-19 17:07:42

GillT57 Disagree with me by all means - that is what these forums are for, but please do not indulge in insulting language.

You are doing yourself no favours at all by being so rude.
I have got no time for people who are unable to argue a point without resorting to insulting another poster, so please stop.

I strongly believe in being tough with criminals - you obviously disagree, which of course is your right.

growstuff Wed 14-Aug-19 17:20:02

In that case don't exaggerate the "luxury" of prison by calling them holiday camps. It's quite hard to keep one's cool when people make such assertions.

If you want a proper discussion, stick to facts.

suziewoozie Wed 14-Aug-19 17:25:47

Jennifer I honestly don’t think your posts demonstrate that you are well informed about conditions in most of our prisons. Have you followed the reports made by the Prison Inspectorate over the last few years? This is an informative link - you could read the first few pages and learn a great deal. The US has one of the highest if not the highest per capita imprisonment rate in the Western World, yet prisons are extremely tough. Can you honestly provide evidence ( not opinions) that demonstrate the tough prison regimes and high rates of imprisonment result in lower rates of offending?

GillT57 Wed 14-Aug-19 17:36:29

Actually Jennifereccles I was tempering my language as your post made me very angry. Yes, we are all entitled to our opinions but ill informed statements about 'holiday camps' have no validity as it is completely and utterly untrue. Unless you holiday in a 10x8 room with a stranger, use the shared toilet in the corner of said room, spend 23 hours in the room with a potentially smelly stranger as you are not permitted daily showers. If this is your idea of a holiday camp, please accept my apologies, otherwise do your research, it isn't difficult and there are many links already provided.

suziewoozie Wed 14-Aug-19 17:48:09

Gill you forgot the companionship provided by the rats, mice and cockroaches and the air conditioning courtesy of the broken window panes.

Iam64 Wed 14-Aug-19 19:58:38

Have you ever been inside a prison JenniferEccles? Any one who has would never describe the buildings, much less the regimes as "like a holiday camp". Prisons are tough places for inmates and for staff. Many people who are in prison shouldn't be there, they have significant mental health problems and need a therapeutic environment. that is particularly so where women's prisons are concerned.
You may see me as some lefti liberal who knows nothing of the Real World. You'd be so very far from the truth.

JenniferEccles Thu 15-Aug-19 12:49:37

Ok maybe holiday camp was a bit of an exaggeration but I still have no sympathy whatsoever for those who end up in prison.

After all we all know that most just get a slapped wrist these days.

varian Thu 15-Aug-19 12:51:24

How do you know that JenneiferEccles?

suziewoozie Thu 15-Aug-19 15:21:30

No Jennifer holiday camp wasn’t an exaggeration but a totally fallacious description which some might think was based on ignorance and prejudice. In my opinion, your posts demonstrate no knowledge whatsoever of the prison system and its inmates. Did you read my link?

GillT57 Thu 15-Aug-19 15:48:48

Just give it up jennifereccles you know nothing whatsoever about the prison system and its failings. Other than the dog whistle reactionary rubbish you read in certain newspapers and then trot out as fact. Opinions are valid on GN but when it is ill informed and narrow minded don't cry when you get corrected.

suzied Thu 15-Aug-19 16:30:11

I can understand a vindictive desire for revenge when you are the victim of a horrible crime, and I don't think anyone has any objection to those who commit violent or sexual offences being contained for a long time, however, so many of those who are locked up are no threat to society and maybe should be made to pay for their crimes in a more humane and constructive way than prison currently provides.

GillT57 Thu 15-Aug-19 17:23:30

Yes suzied I too can agree that we would all feel that way, and many criminal acts deserve severe sentences for punishment and protection purposes, I don't think any of us have a problem with that. But, the majority of criminals have poor mental health, addiction, dysfunctional family life, etc., and these are the problems which need to be addressed to prevent the people committing the crimes and ending up in 'the system'. I agree that there should be a more constructive way to deal with people's crimes, but the biggest problem is that action to prevent initial offences or re-offending cost money and that brings out the Pritti Patel rhetoric with talk of punishment, fear, revenge etc and then we get people describing prisons as holiday camps. Initiatives to improve adult literacy are proven to work as the illiteracy rate amongst prisoners are very high, but again, it is hard to undertake these programmes when the majority of prisoners are locked up for 23 hours a day due to funding shortages and subsequent staffing levels being reduced, not to mention when you have idiotic moves by people like Chris Grayling to stop prisoners from receiving books. ( subsequently cancelled).

Dinahmo Thu 15-Aug-19 18:33:58

Increase in crime/reduction in youth facilities. Correlation?

There is a lot of talk on here about deterrents but in the UK nearly 70% of prisoners are re-convicted. One reason is that they don't think they'll get caught.

In our glorious past people were sentenced to death or transportation to the colonies for stealing a sheep or some game. That wasn't a deterrent. Life imprisonment isn't a deterrent because people often act without thinking of the consequences.

varian Thu 15-Aug-19 18:38:53

It's not just that they think they won't get caught. it's also because of the tricks they learned in their spell at a university of crime, which turns petty offenders into nasty hardened criminals.

Dinahmo Thu 15-Aug-19 18:44:37

Day6 The comments about the Express the Mail and the Sun are justified, IMHO. Their proprietors are individuals and/or corporations who have a right wing agenda because they want to see the UK become a tax haven, amongst other things. They don't want us to remain in the EU because of the legislation that is being introduced on 1 January 2020 concerning the press.

Fennel Thu 15-Aug-19 19:58:46

There was a very upsetting incident of murder yesterday in Newcastle centre.
The cause isn't known yet, but an apparently innocent middle aged man was confronted by a group of teenagers, stabbed with a screwdriver, and died from his wound.
7 teenagers have been arrested.
What causes young people to behave that way?

Fennel Fri 16-Aug-19 09:14:07

ps it seems the victim was a lawyer - that might be a clue to the motive.