Gransnet forums

News & politics

Justin Trudeau

(108 Posts)
Rosina Thu 19-Sep-19 08:39:57

I have just read that Trudeau should resign because he wore some tan/black face makeup at an Arabian Nights fancy dress party around twenty years ago.

Anyone care to join me in repeatedly banging our heads against the wall?

Urmstongran Thu 19-Sep-19 08:45:10

We weren’t ‘woke’ then. You shouldn’t judge people’s past actions by today’s standards, in my opinion. Life moves on. What was acceptable once isn’t now. What is acceptable now won’t be in 20 years I daresay.

MaizieD Thu 19-Sep-19 08:55:36

I'm with you, Rosina...

henetha Thu 19-Sep-19 10:04:57

If he is guilty of racism then so am I. Many years ago at school, in the 1950's, (I was about 13/14 years old) I was chosen as one of the three wise men to each sing a verse of "We Three Kings of Orient Are". I was the one with the turban and the blacked up face. (well, more brownish really). I was so nervous and trembled my way through it as I, (and 2 other girls) had to walk the full length of the school hall, singing, and then go up onto the stage.
I don't think I was guilty of racism. I didn't have a clue.
To condemn Mr.Trudeau is utterly ridiculous.

sasquatch Thu 19-Sep-19 10:05:21

People need to get a grip! So he darkened his face and dressed as an arabian at an arabian night theme party twenty years ago! I dressed as a french person once with beret stripey teeshirt and a string of garlic round my neck... and said ooh lah lah for most of the night! does that make me racist? most of us have dressed as a person from another country... if anyone wants to don a red wig, paint freckles on their face and sing diddly aye songs till the wee hours... away with yis... i promise i wont be offended!

sunseeker Thu 19-Sep-19 10:15:04

Looking at the picture I am surprised he hasn't been accused of sexual harassment as he has his hand on the young lady's chest!

seacliff Thu 19-Sep-19 10:15:36

The world has gone mad!!!

Sussexborn Thu 19-Sep-19 10:16:14

I got chatting to a lady (or should that be a woman?) who originally came from the West Indies. She felt these witch hunts cause more trouble for her community and are rarely initiated by them.

An elderly cockney lady asked a lad on the bus if he felt he was a victim of racism. His response was that he hadn’t felt that he was until his teacher told him he was.

EllanVannin Thu 19-Sep-19 10:55:24

FGS, what about the wonderful singing of the Black and White minstrels in their shows ? Nobody complained one bit !!

Blinko Thu 19-Sep-19 11:00:02

EV, they sure do now!

KatyK Thu 19-Sep-19 11:02:38

There was an item on This Morning yesterday with a young woman complaining that she had seen Morris dancers with their faces painted black. There was a Morris dancer on explaining the tradition of it which goes back hundreds of years and is nothing to do with racism. For goodness sake.

merlotgran Thu 19-Sep-19 11:19:30

If they ban Morris dancers from blacking up, which traditionally was done to disguise their faces so that they couldn't be identified by their bosses, please can we also ban 'hoodies' which are far more sinister and often used to conceal the face of somebody with criminal intent.

cangran Thu 19-Sep-19 11:40:44

Agree Rosina. Unfortunately there is an election coming up in Canada and the opposition parties will use this for all its worth to discredit Justin Trudeau and the Liberal party. The irony is, the main opposition, the Conservative party, are much more likely to have racists in the party (my Alberta brother-in-law and his friends for sure!).

Eloethan Thu 19-Sep-19 12:02:57

In the case of Justin Trudeau, it was insensitive - and he is right, he should have known better - but it was 20 years ago and to suggest that he should resign seems over the top to me.

The Black and White Minstrel Show is a different thing entirely. I watched it too when I was young but I had no awareness of how hurtful and insulting it was to black people - or why it was so. It is deeply offensive and I think it was quite right to drop it.

As for the Morris dancers, no racist motives were, or are, intended by the blacking of faces. However, as a black panellist on Jeremy Vine said, blacking of faces has some very degrading connotations for black people. I agree with Giles Brandreth who said that if it hurts people's feelings, why do it? Why not use another colour to signify the need in past times for workers to hide their identity?

This is an extract from BBC's Children's Newsround:

"Blackface was a practice in which black people were mocked for the entertainment of white people, and negative stereotypes were promoted across the US and Europe.

"In the early 19th Century, white actors called minstrel performers used to paint their faces black and do comedy routines about black people, which were racist.

"They would do insulting impressions of black people in very exaggerated ways - for example, mocking their accent.

"These depictions were inaccurate, hurtful and deeply offensive, but many white people saw it as an acceptable form of entertainment.

"Ben Holman, a campaign worker for the organisation Show Racism the Red Card, told Newsround: "This practice in particular came at a time when black people wouldn't be allowed on stage due to their skin colour."

When black people are directly asked if they find certain things offensive, they often do not reveal their true feelings for fear of being labelled "touchy", "over sensitive", "having a chip on their shoulder", etc, etc. I have recounted in previous threads how, when my husband first came to the UK, his white colleagues said they would change his name to make it easier for them to remember (he has a very simple name but they wanted to impose a typically English name on him). He refused and was labelled "awkward". Most of his non-white colleagues went along with this re-naming because they didn't want to be similarly labelled.

EllanVannin Thu 19-Sep-19 12:42:02

This anti-business of everything has caused untold trouble !!

EllanVannin Thu 19-Sep-19 12:46:46

Why should people be made aware ? We're all aware of the skin colours of various humans of this world, why should we be reminded all the time ? We also know, those of us who aren't ignorant nor uneducated, that we address these humans in the same way so what's the damn problem with everyone that we have to tread on eggshells all the time ? With everything ! It gets on my wick !!

Urmstongran Thu 19-Sep-19 13:00:47

So many PC phrases to remember now - so as not to offend:

Mixed race - not half caste
People ‘of colour’ - not black (but at one time they themselves wanted that rather than being called ‘coloured’) - hard to keep up since we’ve almost but not quite, reverted back.
Asian - not ‘paki’ - but a lot of Indian people who don’t like Pakistani still use the term.

Remember we used to say ‘crippled’? Now it’s ‘has mobility issues’ (I think)

And now it’s Down syndrome - not mongoloid.

We have to learn to keep up and not offend.

EllanVannin Thu 19-Sep-19 13:08:27

How many of these " anti's " whingers go abroad or even sunbathe here ? What is the purpose of their sunbathing ? None other than to change the colour of their skin ! Laughable
You greet these sunburnt people by saying, " my word you're nice and brown !" Would you answer by saying it's a racist remark ?
Double standards,eh ?

LondonGranny Thu 19-Sep-19 13:17:06

Dunno where this idea that blackface wasn't considered offensive 20 years ago comes from. I remember in the 60s when my mum was guardian to four black overseas siblings who attended a private school here how deeply offensive it was. I think it just wasn't on most white people's radar because they didn't bother to think about it.
Also the idea that Morris dancers blacking up has nothing to do with mocking black people is mendacious. Why is it called 'Darky Day' in Padstow if it's nothing to do with race?

EllanVannin Thu 19-Sep-19 13:21:02

I've said this before---that I have 7 GGC, one is flaxen-haired and blue-eyed, the others are fair but one of them is dark, tanned skin and green eyes like Sabu in the film of the same name. Same father for all children and my GD has been stopped in the past thinking he'd been adopted or jokingly the coal-man's child but instead of my GD being hostile, she's laughed about it.
How would others react ?

When the boy was younger my GD was approached by a Spanish lady who was an artist and made a pencilled drawing of the boy, which has been framed and is on the wall in her house. Brilliant artwork.

sunseeker Thu 19-Sep-19 13:29:18

LondonGranny "Darkie Day" has nothing to do with race. It relates to an ancient pagan celebration of the winter solstice and involves people disguising themselves by painting their faces black and wearing dark clothing (the name has now been changed to Mummers Day to avoid causing offence)

Oopsminty Thu 19-Sep-19 13:33:04

EllanVannin. I was like your relative. I bore no resemblance to my sister at all. She was all pink and blonde and I was dark and swarthy. I didn't look like either of my parents. We had the endless jokes about coalman/milkman and we all smiled. But it wasn't really very funny at all. I think my mother was quite hurt about it at times. Think about it ... you're basically saying that Mum's had an affair o-0

Luckygirl Thu 19-Sep-19 14:04:26

Trudeau was young - he did something that was OK then but now considered unacceptable. Why do we need to even know this?

lemongrove Thu 19-Sep-19 14:12:51

I thought Trudeau made a mistake in apologising at all.
He should have said, for heaven’s sake it was a dressing up event at the school, akin to acting, or a nativity play ( children with teatowels on their heads.)An Arabian nights theme so we all dressed up ( get over it!)
Being a politician of course, he did the usual dead eyed apology.

Lyndiloo Thu 19-Sep-19 17:22:53

I agree with you, lemongrove. What a ridiculous state of affairs when people are called racist for attending a fancy-dress party, and darkening their skin colour.

Who cares?

The fact that Trudeau apologised makes the complaints seem legitimate, when of course, they are not.

I wouldn't give a toss if a black man whitened his face and dressed, say, in a pin-striped suit and bowler hat for a party! Why would I?

Isn't it about time we all just ignored these stupidities, and learned to laugh a little?

Real racism will continue if people keep making such a fuss over nothing at all!

M0nica Thu 19-Sep-19 17:39:45

Rosina I will be alongside banging my head as well.

Rosina Thu 19-Sep-19 18:21:35

At tmes this kind of over sensistivity makes me sad, because it stirs up annoyance against a particualr group. There was a lot of fuss about wearing poppies a few years back and on our local news many people of mixed race, persons 'of colour' (if I can say that without being barred forever from the internet and having to ritually disembowel myself) were asked about the supposed 'offence' and without fail they were either bemused at the suggestion or regarded it as a nonsense. One Asian man said that he understood poppies were a mark of respect for the fallen, so why should he or anybody else be offended by that? Nonetheless the bigots were out in full force shouting about 'immigrants trying to stop the nation showing respect '. This seems so often to be the end result of such hypersensitivity - which does make me wonder who really generates such doubtful news. The girl who didn't like the Morris dancers said that the more she watched it the more upset she got. Why then watch it and get upset ? Better perhaps to find out what the origins of this custom are.

Labaik Thu 19-Sep-19 19:29:31

I think everyone that has ever worn a fancy dress costume that is now regarded as not correct should put their photo on social media in support of Trudeau #imspartacus.....

jura2 Thu 19-Sep-19 20:06:26

Indeed- different world now. And we do do daft things when we are young. Our generation should be so so grateful that none of it was recorded in any way, not even photos.

He has acknowledged that with hindsight it was wrong, and has apologised.

CanadianGran Thu 19-Sep-19 20:09:13

As a Canadian, and someone who voted for the Liberal party, I cringed when I saw the photo. He was raised in the spotlight, being the son of a long time Prime Minister and celebrity mother; so even in 1990 he should have known better.

Having said that, he has promoted multiculturalism and women's rights in his cabinet since he was elected. I see this as something done in bad taste, but with no deliberate racism intended. He has apologized.

We have just started a campaign, with the vote being in November. This will indeed hurt his poll figures, especially since one of the leaders of an opposing party is a turban wearing Sikh.

Stupid indeed, but I think the Liberal party may overcome this.

Urmstongran Thu 19-Sep-19 20:12:51

Your posts are particularly helpful CanadianGran thank you, as you have more insight into the political situation over there - especially at a time of electioneering!
😊

Chewbacca Thu 19-Sep-19 20:46:57

I remember being in a school play when I was about 8 or 9 years old. The general storyline was about how we are all, no matter what size or colour etc, the same as each other. I can quite clearly remember being dressed up in a tunic and cut off trousers, a san pan hat that had a long black pigtail stitched into the inside and which hung down my back. And my face was dusted in yellow chalk and makeup put on my eyes to make me look Chinese. The rest of my classmates were similarly dressed and made up to resemble other nationalities.

The whole aim of that school play, back in the 1950s, was to try to demonstrate why diversity is a good thing and, no matter what colour skin you have, we are all the same underneath that skin. How depressing to find out now, 60 years later, that what me and my classmates did is now considered racist and offensive. And worse yet, there are photos of us.

M0nica Thu 19-Sep-19 20:54:17

Reading the news this evening, and how he 'blacked up' not once, but several times, I found myself reaching similar conclusions to CanadianGran, and for similar same reasons.

I withdraw my previous post.

Eloethan Thu 19-Sep-19 23:02:33

Lyndiloo You say "who cares?". Well, obviously you don't care but the people who are hurt by it care and those who are bothered that they are hurt by it care too.

It is your opinion that the complaints are not legitimate. It is my opinion that they are.

While black people in the US were being oppressed by white people and subjected to segregation in every area of public life, the entertainment industry reinforced the idea that they were intellectually and morally inferior to white people by creating distorted caricatures to portray them. In the UK, the Black and White Minstrel Show presented a similarly distorted picture.

The Penguin Encyclopaedia of Popular Music states that: that:

'Minstrelsy became more overtly racist after the Civil War: the image of the 'darky' as a comic buffoon insulated whites from having to deal with the reality of free black Americans . . . Conditions were terrible for black performers . . .'

Is it any surprise, with these sorts of historical associations, black people feel insulted and threatened when they see white people "blacking up".

You blithely say that you "would not give a toss" if a black man whitened his face". But white people's historical cultural associations do not include the subjugation and brutalisation of their race by another so a black man "whiting up" would be very unlikely to induce in a white man the same discomfort, fear and anger.

Davidhs Fri 20-Sep-19 07:30:39

One mistake is forgivable but today it is reported that as a young man he repeatedly “Blacked up”. That was the 1990s and he seemed to think it was funny then, a lot of people will have the opposite view and it will probably damage him.

I do remember having gravy browning put on and being dressed as a golly for a fancy dress in the 50s, was a long time ago

MaizieD Fri 20-Sep-19 09:24:59

Having said that, he has promoted multiculturalism and women's rights in his cabinet since he was elected.

Counts for nothing?

Whitewavemark2 Fri 20-Sep-19 09:35:51

It seems to me that given the up coming election in Canada this is exactly the type of thing we will be seeing soon in this country.

Trashing the oppositions reputation is the name of the game.

We can choose to ignore it or not.

SirChenjin Fri 20-Sep-19 10:56:53

Anyone who believes that we didn't know that darking up (and singing Day O) was wrong 20 years is either lying through their teeth or hiding their racist views behind faux ignorance. He's only 3 years younger than me, and we were pretty well appraised of the connotation of blacking up back then - in fact, we've all been well appraised for a lot longer than that.

If anyone still isn't aware of the historical context then reading some of the links posted upthread and some of the excellent posts by Eloethan and others should help to educate.

EllanVannin Fri 20-Sep-19 12:53:19

The media's at fault for creating these frenzied articles to purposely get the racially motivated idiots on side.

My late husband went to sea and sailed with crews of all nationalities who many of them usually blacks used to skit at the whites and call them limey's.
To many Americans we're still classed as limey's, which includes the British people and not just sailors.
Am I bovvered ? Not at all !

Scribbles Fri 20-Sep-19 13:13:11

I try to remember that I should refer to persons "of colour" rather than "black people". I don't want to deliberately offend anyone even though the world now seems to be populated by professional offence-seekers.

But why is it okay for me, as a pale skinned northern European to be called "white"? I'm not! I'm a blend of pinkish bits and a few brown freckles. If I wasn't busy getting on with my real life, I might start to feel offended.

Daft?
Yes. Just like all this focus on skin colour and how to describe it. Isn't it time everyone got past all that and concentrated on accepting each other for who we are?

SirChenjin Fri 20-Sep-19 16:38:32

With all due respect - this is not about the white people though, is it.

Alypoole Fri 20-Sep-19 16:51:03

I’m with you too, Rosina. I give up! Where are we going.......?

SirChenjin Fri 20-Sep-19 17:14:17

Hopefully to a place where all white people better understand the racist history behind black face and know why it’s unacceptable (as most of us did 20 years ago) smile

JenniferEccles Fri 20-Sep-19 17:27:10

These days there seems to be no end to the ways in which we can allegedly offend someone by our innocent actions.

It seems to me that every week we have a new rule or phrase to learn - something else we mustn't do or say in case the permanently outraged will be - well - outraged.

A while back we had 'cultural appropriation ' whereby we mustn't dare to put on a sombrero in case we offend one of Donald Trump's Mexican friends!!

Who comes up with supposed rules?

Why do we feel we have to abide by them?

Wouldn't it be wonderful if everyone refused to take part in all this nonsense?

Gaunt47 Fri 20-Sep-19 17:50:24

I agree Scribbles, I'm not white either. On a form, perhaps the last census?, there was a choice of colours white brown etc. to tick, helpfully with 'other' at the bottom. So I wrote in the box 'pale pinky/grey'.

Scribbles Fri 20-Sep-19 17:52:19

JenniferE - Wouldn't it be wonderful if everyone refused to take part in all this nonsense?

- yes!!

Scribbles Fri 20-Sep-19 17:56:48

G47 - I did that, too. OH was horrified and convinced the PC police would arrive at any second to take me away for corrective therapy.grin

SirChenjin Fri 20-Sep-19 17:58:34

It’s not really that hard, is it? Most people find it quite easy to understand that blacking up is not acceptable, nor is the term n*gger, paki, chinky, spaz, mong, crip and so on. If you’re not sure it’s easy enough to do a bit of research.

eazybee Fri 20-Sep-19 18:00:59

Why it is considered offensive for a person to imitate a person of another race by use of costume, make-up and wigs I really do not understand, (and please don't come on here again to tell me; I have read the previous posts).

The intention is not to ridicule or humiliate, but to emulate.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

SirChenjin Fri 20-Sep-19 18:10:05

Here’s a basic introduction to blackface and why it’s wrong. Disclaimer: other websites are available by doing a very quick google search www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2014/10/29/7089591/why-is-blackface-offensive-halloween-costume

SirChenjin Fri 20-Sep-19 18:12:12

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/09/19/world/brownface-blackface-yellowface-trnd/index.html

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface

Magpie1959 Fri 20-Sep-19 18:16:23

We attended a fancy dress party a few years ago with one of my sons friends who had dressed up as Barack Obama - with dark brown makeup on his face.
There was never any thought of racism, the young man concerned was a massive fan of Obama and everything he stood for and had achieved in his time in office.
Obviously nobody else thought it was racist either - he won first prize!

Elrel Fri 20-Sep-19 18:26:04

Eloethan - Renaming wasn’t just related to skin colour. My friend Giovanni arrived in the West Midlands from Italy about 50 years ago as a six year old.
He was enrolled in a Catholic primary a school where the nuns asserted “We can’t be doing with that, we’ll be calling you John!’ Such sensitivity!

SirChenjin Fri 20-Sep-19 18:31:55

Sounds like you mix with people who are similarly unaware of the racist connotations of blackface Magpie

maddyone Fri 20-Sep-19 18:37:35

Oh dear, what a lot of views, where to start?

I try to be PC wherever possible (I was a teacher, we’re all PC in teaching) but I do get a tad fed up at times where offence is taken, often on behalf of others, where non is meant. I think most people try to keep up, and we should only be upset when real racism occurs. My dear old Dad, bless him, loved The Black and White Minstrel Show, but he was the least racist person you could ever meet. You see he regarded the show as entertainment and he enjoyed the songs, but he would never have behaved in a racist way, he was far too dignified and caring. He wrote in my autograph book, ‘Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.’ Wise words. Of course that show isn’t acceptable now, but we shouldn’t look for problems and take offence where none is meant.

Rosina, thankfully that nonsense about the poppies seems to have disappeared. Of course we should honour our dead, soldiers from all over the Commonwealth who died in the two World Wars in the last century. Yes, they were black, they were brown,
they were white, they were Asian. We honour them all by wearing our poppies.

SirChenjin Fri 20-Sep-19 18:44:39

Actually - blackface is racist. Lots of things were ‘entertaining’ or ‘harmless’ back in the 60s and 70s but we nowadays we tend to be better educated and understand the historical, social or political context of these ‘harmless, funny’ issues.

Magpie1959 Fri 20-Sep-19 18:47:15

SirChenjin,
"Sounds like you mix with people who are similarly unaware of the racist connotations of blackface Magpie"

You are clearly missing the point I was making. There were NO racist connotations in that particular instance.
And for the record it was a public event so people of all races, colours, creeds, sexual orientation etc etc were present.

maddyone Fri 20-Sep-19 18:49:59

Actually I did mention that the show is not acceptable now! But it was acceptable when it was aired, and just because you SirChenjin choose to view it from today’s perspective, it doesn’t make all the people who watched it, including my lovely father, racists!

SirChenjin Fri 20-Sep-19 19:01:49

Magpie - you can deny all you like, but blackface has racist connotations that have been well known for years, and certainly as recently as Obama’s presidency. See the links I posted upthread.

Yes I was setting the B&WMS from today’s perspective maddy - to show that we’ve moved on from those days, as Trudeau would have known. We know that it’s not entertaining because we understand the context now.

Eloethan Sat 21-Sep-19 01:04:46

Can you not understand? The practice of "blacking up" has seriously unpleasant associations for black people - of segregation, discrimination, disrespect, ridicule, denigration, etc, etc. Can you not put yourself in someone else's shoes and see how it feels for them or at least understand and accept that it hurts and offends many people?

I think the phrase "political correctness" is a a misleading one, which evokes a knee-jerk reaction. It is not about politics (or only politics in its widest sense - not party politics). It is about having an awareness of people's feelings and treating everyone with courtesy, respect and decency.

It has been acknowledged that many people who watched the Black and White Minstrel Show (that included me, as a child, and my parents) were sadly ignorant of the offence it caused in portraying and reinforcing in the public psyche a gross caricature of black people. But that was at least 50 years ago, not 20.

As Trudeau himself said, he should have known better. When he came to office I was hoping he would be different but this latest revelation, on top of the previous corruption scandal, has changed my opinion of him.

Floradora9 Sat 21-Sep-19 12:38:02

I was thinking they might ban getting into Japanese costumes for " The Mikado" . The ladies wear Japanese make up and the men sport pigtails .

SirChenjin Sat 21-Sep-19 13:36:34

The Mikado has certainly generated a lot of debate over the last few years, with its racial stereotyping, yellow face makeup and use of tape to narrow and elongate the eyes. You might be interested in this article www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2016/12/25/arts/music/reviving-the-mikado-in-a-balancing-act-of-taste.amp.html

SirChenjin Sat 21-Sep-19 13:37:17

Yellowface

GrannyGravy13 Sat 21-Sep-19 13:38:50

There was a case in the USA earlier this year when a girl wore a chomsum to her prom and Chinese pupils accused her of "cultural appropriation".

Jane10 Sat 21-Sep-19 13:40:59

Hmmmm. It's all a matter of make up. People acting, pretending to be someone else. Personally, as a woman, I don't feel insulted by drag Queens dressed up and made up as women.

SirChenjin Sat 21-Sep-19 13:59:07

It’s a bit more than make up - there is a racist historical context. Lots of links upthread explain it.

Jane10 Sat 21-Sep-19 14:33:13

I do kniw that it's possible to see a racist link! It's also possible to consider context and date of action.

grapefruitpip Sat 21-Sep-19 14:54:42

Who are the PC Police? Are they a higher level than the PC Brigade?

Where can I encounter such groups?

SirChenjin Sat 21-Sep-19 15:48:23

Not ‘to see a racist link’ - there is a racist link, and that link was well known 20 years ago by people of Justin Trudeau’s age (I’m in the age group, we were pretty well aware of it)

It feels like the PC Police must hold a higher status than the mere members of the Brigade grin

sarahellenwhitney Sat 21-Sep-19 15:59:42

Get a life anyone who condemns the man for such a trivial matter.

SirChenjin Sat 21-Sep-19 16:04:33

In your opinion, what is trivial about the historical context of blackface and its racist connotations?

EllanVannin Sat 21-Sep-19 16:37:23

At least Lenny Henry saw the funny side as he introduced himself as Justin Trudeau.

SirChenjin Sat 21-Sep-19 16:48:51

Yes, he mocked JT when he was presenting at an event on the importance of diversity - getting more people from ethnic minority groups, disabled people and women into television

Sparklefizz Sat 21-Sep-19 17:03:01

At least Lenny Henry saw the funny side as he introduced himself as Justin Trudeau.

That was the best reaction of all, imo. ! It did what it was supposed to do.

EllanVannin Sat 21-Sep-19 17:16:30

It certainly was the best reaction.
LH always laughed at himself. He starred in the Black and White Minstrel show many years ago too.

SirChenjin Sat 21-Sep-19 17:18:20

Yes, LH uses humour to highlight ignorance very well

SirChenjin Sat 21-Sep-19 17:19:25

He is also horrified now at his appearance on the B&WMS

Pantglas2 Sat 21-Sep-19 17:21:25

I agree that Lenny Henry’s reaction was hilarious but that doesn’t lessen what Justin Trudeau did - not just once but numerous times in a supposedly more enlightened era.

SirChenjin Sat 21-Sep-19 17:22:49

No it doesn’t Pantglas2

NfkDumpling Sat 21-Sep-19 18:12:14

We had lots Morris dancer groups in town a few weeks back wearing all sorts of fantastic costumes and disguises including black faces, red faces and even green faces. I don’t think anyone thought any of them were racist.

SirChenjin Sat 21-Sep-19 21:52:58

Morris dancers blackface has drawn a fair amount of criticism but the origins are unclear. This explains a bit more en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Morris

GagaJo Sat 21-Sep-19 22:41:39

Hang on, I'm 54. At 34 I DEFINITELY knew blacking up was wrong. Very, very, very wrong. Exceptionally racist.

He was wrong. He's a sensible bloke. He's probably been concerned for years that this would surface.

How many of you are people of colour? It is NOT for white people to say what isn't racist. In fact, I would go so far as to say, that if you are white and claiming something isn't racist, that you are part of the problem.

pinkquartz Sat 21-Sep-19 22:47:16

No I don't see the problem with what the did nearly 20 years ago.
All that should matter is what he does now.

Again the really important crisis is pushed to one side.

pinkquartz Sat 21-Sep-19 22:50:26

I should have also said that while I was young when the disgusting black and white minstrels was on TV I did not watch it.
I thought is was wrong even then, my parents were ahead of the curve and I knew it was offensive.

GagaJo Sat 21-Sep-19 22:53:46

I wonder if everyone on here claiming T's past should be ignored, would say the same, should Jeremy Corbyn have a nasty skeleton in his cupboard.

MaizieD Sat 21-Sep-19 22:55:59

So, put me right.

If you go to a fancy dress party 'dressed' as someone from a different culture it's fine so long as you don't try to reproduce their skin colour? Or is the act of trying to dress like them also racist? (I seem to remember a big fuss about 'cultural appropriation' not so long ago).

And if a white actor 'blacks up' to play Othello, they're being racist? Or is it just offensive?

GagaJo Sat 21-Sep-19 23:00:53

Depends on if the whole remaining cast is white (re: Othello). If the cast is all white, then Othello should be played by a person of colour.

If the cast is mixed, Othello could be any colour. No need for artificial enhancement.

pinkquartz Sat 21-Sep-19 23:02:28

A white person can perceive racism.
I am intelligent not ignorant, but to look back and make him resign now is ridiculous.
So people can't make a mistake and own it?
Once that mistake is done it's forever?
What a terrible world that will be.
And please it's not only white people that can be racist.....I know it exists in many different cultures.

Blackfaces in Morris Dancing has another history nothing to do with race but to do with disguise, poverty and being "owned" by the landowners.

pinkquartz Sat 21-Sep-19 23:04:36

Plenty of skeleton's perhaps in Corbyn's closet.
But irrelevant in this topic.

What about Prince Harry dressed up in an SS costume that really pissed me off.

Fairydoll2030 Sat 21-Sep-19 23:08:10

Well, circa 1970, I was in an amateur dramatic society and we entered a drama competition. I played the part of an Indian doctor and had to have a black face and hands - does that make ME a racist? What a load of nonsense.

Incidentally, at the end of the competition ( in which we were runner up), one of the judges commented that I had obviously forgotten to put make up on my feet as they showed a whiter shade of pale below my sari! That caused a laugh and some applause from the audience....obviously a racist bunch!

GagaJo Sat 21-Sep-19 23:11:05

Obviously white people can perceive racism. A hell of a lot of white people on here who can't though.

Yes, Fairydoll2030, a very racist bunch.

MaizieD Sat 21-Sep-19 23:19:37

I doubt if Othello was played by a person of colour when it was first stage, GagaJo. Shakespeare intended his character to be a 'Moor'. Wouldn't that have been integral to the play? Doesn't having it played by a 'white' white person take away part of its essence?

And you're surely not suggesting that actors should confine themselves to roles which reflect their own ethnicity? Only Russians can act Chekov, only Norwegians in Isben, only the
French can play Moliere?

I'm curious about this. It seems to me, as with all things, that 'intention' could be considered...

GagaJo Sat 21-Sep-19 23:27:24

No, I'm not. Hence, if the cast is mixed ethnically, then the 'moor' doesn't need to be of colour. If white characters can be asian/african, black characters can be white. It's ACTING. It is possible to act oppression. Gay characters don't have to BE gay to act the part.

No, MaizieD, but then the female characters in the 16th century would have been played by women. We don't do that anymore either.

GagaJo Sat 21-Sep-19 23:28:58

Urgh. Typo. The female characters in the 16th century would have been played by men.

quizqueen Sat 21-Sep-19 23:31:20

Poor old (or should I say young) Trudeau!!! I daresay though if it had been Boris or Trump you'd all be singing a different tune, but Trudeau is a leftie so he must be forgiven.

blondenana Sat 21-Sep-19 23:33:28

Personally i think it's ridiculous, it was years ago, and when we had the black/white minstrels who thought anything about it
It gets on my nerves all this racism calling and trans stuff
There is just too much PC going on,
You wont be able to breathe without prmission soon
Sorry it's late not read the full thread, so there might be a of different opinions or all been said before, but i don't see why he should resign
Just imagine if Alf Garnett was around now,he would be locked up shock

GagaJo Sat 21-Sep-19 23:34:58

Yes, Alf Garnett would be locked up! He was awful. Imagine the hurt he would cause in real life.

Eloethan Sun 22-Sep-19 00:53:42

quizqueen Most of the people on here who think it's a matter of little importance are not "lefties".

I expect I would be described as a "leftie" (though I think the more respectful way of referring to someone's political leanings is to describe them as "left wing" or "right wing") I certainly don't minimise Trudeau's behaviour. I didn't think it was a resigning issue - largely because it would undoubtedly make a martyr of him in some people's eyes. Having subsequently read that he "blacked up" on several occasions, I would hope that he has, in any event, lost the trust and support of many people. I imagine the corruption scandal has also severely dented his image - he's not the person he initially presented himself to be.

maddyone Sun 22-Sep-19 09:32:22

Gagajo,
Obviously white people can perceive racism. A hell of a lot of white people on here who can’t though.

Gagajo, do you know which people on here are white? If you do you’re extremely clever, because I don’t and no one else does. I don’t know if you’re white, black or brown. And you don’t know if I’m black, brown or white.

SirChenjin Sun 22-Sep-19 09:39:33

Blackfaces in Morris Dancing has another history nothing to do with race but to do with disguise, poverty and being "owned" by the landowners

There’s no definitive reason for Morris blackface and race may have had something to do with it. The link I posted upthread gives you the history of it.