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News & politics

The man is mad!

(154 Posts)
Fennel Sun 09-Feb-20 17:48:41

I don't enjoy entering the news and politics forums, but this news item shocked me:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7982525/Boris-Johnson-revives-20billion-plan-bridge-Scotland-Northern-Ireland.html
Especially today with the threat to bridges like the current storm.

MaizieD Sun 16-Feb-20 10:15:24

Maybe this should be on a different thread, but perhaps, Cunco, you could tell me what Corbyn and McDonnell planned to do that was going to be so disastrous for the UK?

Were they going to politicise the judiciary?
Were they going to cut departmental spending yet again while trumpeting about vanity projects which would never get done?
Were they going to pack the Cabinet with incompetent yes men?
Were they hell bent on a 'no deal' Brexit?
Was Seamus Milne going to run the country?

Do tell...

Callistemon Sun 16-Feb-20 10:17:34

I think the problem was that no-one was at all clear just what they were going to do, MaizieD.

That's why they lost so decisively.

trisher Sun 16-Feb-20 10:17:58

And all Boris has to do is to provide the money and of course there's loads of that around now isn't there??? Where it has suddenly come from no-one knows and of course it can't be used for anything else can it? 40 hospitals anyone?

MaizieD Sun 16-Feb-20 10:24:09

They had a detailed manifesto, Cunco. Which was more than the tories had.

Let me get this straight. You aren't clear what a party intends to do when they have a manifesto detailing what they intend to do, so you vote for a party with a minimalist manifesto which says nothing about what they intend to do.. Apart, of course, for 'Get Brexit Done'.

Something odd about the logic there. Can't quite put my finger on it... hmm

Davidhs Sun 16-Feb-20 10:30:02

The challenges are that it would need to be a floating pontoon bridge with sections of suspension bridge to allow shipping to pass. There are examples of pontoon bridges used to cross lakes and fjords but not rough water that would be common in the North channel.
Technically it probably is feasible, wether it is ever likely to be done is entirely a political decision

grandtanteJE65 Sun 16-Feb-20 10:32:49

To be honest Denmark has many bridges, the one crossing the Great Belt, two crossing the Little Belt, one connecting Zealand to Falster and one connecting Als to the rest of the South of Jutland. Probably more, but the list is those I have crossed.

We also share a bridge from Copenhagen to the south of Sweden and plans have been discussed for years to build a bridge from Denmark spanning Femarnsund to Germany.

Some of these bridges have to be closed to traffic in high winds, or closed to vans and motor homes. All of them cost fortunes to build and maintain, as does the Forth bridge and the Forth road bridge in Scotland. Bridge tolls supply the government with some of the money, but even then bridges are expensive. They are however an improvement on the old ferry system, where it took time to load cars, lorries and trains on and off.

suziewoozie Sun 16-Feb-20 12:25:39

The Danish bridges are nowhere near the length of this stupid idea are they grande?

Davidhs Sun 16-Feb-20 12:45:14

Danish bridges are shallow water as well, partly submerged tunnel, causeway and suspension

suziewoozie Sun 16-Feb-20 12:46:28

But they( or one does) seem to encourage criminal activity 😀

POGS Sun 16-Feb-20 12:53:49

I think there is a whiff of hypocrisy surrounding the so called Boris Bridge.

This is not a new thought and there was not a poo pooing of the idea when it was mooted by the likes of the SNP and DUP not so long ago when they were ' considering ' the matter of a bridge joining Portpatrick and Larne
.
It appears to me as soon as the proposal is related to Boris Johnson the claws come out and the proposition is a stupidity because Boris Johnsons name is mentioned.

Personally I have no particular thought one way or the other but I do hold the opinion if the money was spent on connecting Northern Ireland to Scotland and as many believe what the future holds and the UK is broken up due to Reunification in Ireland and the Independence of Scotland then put it on hold until that problem is sorted out first.

In other words let the EU/a Reunited Ireland and an Independent Scotland pay for it, if that is what ' they' want. .

MamaCaz Sun 16-Feb-20 12:56:08

SirChenjin
Yes it’s nuts because [...] it crosses an incredibly busy shopping lane

Shipping lane or shopping lane, I reckon they are much the same thing, aren't they? grin

Greta Sun 16-Feb-20 13:12:48

The Oresund bridge between Sweden and Denmark runs 5 miles to an artificial island and then turns into a tunnel of 2.5 miles. Surely, the Scotland to NI bridge would be longer.

Boris Johnson reminds me of Mad King Ludwig II of Bavaria; the man who developed a mania for extravagant building projects. Should he not focus on some more urgent issues first: NHS, schools, houses, poverty, etc...

trisher Sun 16-Feb-20 13:13:19

Doubt if Boris can tell the difference grin

POGS Sun 16-Feb-20 13:18:12

I rest my case.

Elegran Sun 16-Feb-20 13:49:27

dinahmo posted on 13th Feb at 11,34 that There is a proposal to create two dams across the North Sea (Norway to Scotland) and the English Channel (Cornwall to France) to control higher sea levels which will result from the melting of the polar ice caps. This seems to me to be a much better idea than Johnson's bridge across the Irish Sea.

There were articles about this in the media on 13th Feb, such as this one in the Guardian -

"In a paper to be published this month in the American Journal of Meteorology, Groeskamp and Joakim Kjellsson of the Geomar centre for ocean research in Kiel, Germany, say the idea is affordable and technically feasible – if intended more as “a warning of the immensity of the problem hanging over our heads”.

However, Cloke cautioned that a dam may not be the best use of the money. “Maybe we should be thinking about making populations resilient to flooding in different ways, and also think about what we can do to stop the climate getting worse – invest in keeping ourselves safe in the long term.”

“But in the final calculation, we must also take into account factors such as the loss of income from North Sea fishing, the increased costs for shipping across the North Sea, and the costs of gigantic pumps to transport all of the river water that currently flows into the North Sea to the other side of the dam.”

However, the costs and consequences of doing nothing about rising sea levels would ultimately be “many times higher”, they warned. The project “makes it almost tangible what the consequences of rising sea levels will be”, Groeskamp said.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change predicts that sea levels will rise by 30cm-60cm by 2100, even if the Paris climate accord pledges are met. If emissions continue on their present trends, it foresees an 84cm rise by 2100 and up to 5.4 metres by 2300.

“A rise of 10 metres by the year 2500 is predicted, according to the bleakest scenarios. This dam is therefore mainly a call to do something about climate change now. If we do nothing, this extreme dam might just be the only solution.”

A dam between the nearest points of Scotland and Norway would be 475km - as long as the distance from London to Manchester, or from Brussels to Munich,- that is about twelve times as long as across the nearest points of Scotland and Ireland. It would also cross depths greater that those in the North channel, and be far more exposed than "Boris's Folly", both in the building and maintenance of it and for its own survival.

The cost would be astronomically more than 20 billion (estimated between €250bn and €500bn - and I reckon it wouldn't work because the extra water would just go round to the west coast of the Uk and flood us from there.

Stopping the activities which exacerbate climate change would be better!

Elegran Sun 16-Feb-20 13:50:53

Forgot the link www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/feb/12/giant-dams-could-protect-millions-from-rising-north-sea - but there are plenty of others.

quizqueen Sun 16-Feb-20 14:01:34

I'd want to wait and see if Ireland became united and Scotland left the Union first. I don't want to spend money on prospective foreign countries when we should be spending it at home.

Kalu Sun 16-Feb-20 14:38:34

I doubt very much if Wales and England were the only two countries in the UK, the money would be spent equally for both countries.

Even from what I read on GN this certainly isn’t the way things are at the moment

starbird Sun 16-Feb-20 15:51:20

I am very disappointed in Boris - I thought that at least he was intelligent, but now I wonder if he has a butterfly mind, he can’t stick to things. I think he gets bored easily. It does not bode well.

Callistemon Sun 16-Feb-20 16:01:27

Elegran on a more minor scale, when flood defences were built on the Thames to protect one town, it resulted in flooding further down which flooded another town which had previously been considered safe from floods.

Now, if they started talking about investing in wave power, that might be interesting.

Wheniwasyourage Sun 16-Feb-20 16:31:24

quizqueen, can I just point out that the money which might be spent on this stupid idea is not just English/Welsh money? Your view that it would be spent on 'prospective foreign countries' rather than 'at home' is a little odd when seen from here. At the moment, whatever one's views, this is still a (dis)United Kingdom, and it would be UK money which would be spent on a UK project.

POGS Sun 16-Feb-20 16:54:57

It was my point also wheniwasyourage.

I stand by saying a Reunited Ireland and an Independent Scotland is possibly on the cards and it is a project, if it were feasible, best left until the future of the United Kingdom is known.

Fennel Sun 16-Feb-20 16:56:32

As far as I remember the idea for the Scotland - N.Ireland bridge was to get round the problem of trading between N. Ireland, part of the UK, and Eire, which is part of the EU.
After Brexit.

MaizieD Sun 16-Feb-20 17:08:13

I don't see what a bridge is meant to 'solve'. There'll still be a border between the UK and NI as per the Withdrawal Agreement. It could only be theoretically useful if Scotland became independent and rejoined the EU and Ireland became united. Then it would facilitate frictionless trade between the two EU member states.

Of course, we'd then need an England/Scotland hard border...

POGS Sun 16-Feb-20 17:46:07

Maizied

' It could only be theoretically useful if Scotland became independent and rejoined the EU and Ireland became united. Then it would facilitate frictionless trade between the two EU member States.'
-

You are making the point I made succinctly. That is why I said let the EU/ Reunified Ireland / Independent Scotland pay for it, if it is even a feasibility. If in the future the United Kingdom remains intact then the United Kingdom could / should pay for it.

If the United Kingdom does fall apart as some predict and many would wish this to happen sooner rather than later , why should this be a United Kingdom effort / financial project to assist 2 countries one of which is hell bent on leaving the United Kingdom and the other going who knows where with the possibility of Reuniting and also leaving the United Kingdom.

I know not whether it is feasible, Alan Dunlop and others say it is, so who pays for it and who gains from it would be the major factor.

POGS Sun 16-Feb-20 17:52:57

Boris Johnson did not come up with the idea of a bridge between Northern Ireland and Scotland and to read many posts I honestly think some posters thought he did.

Yes the government is looking at the proposal but so we're the Northern Ireland DUP MP's and the Scottish SNP MP's at one time too.

Only one politician is a ' Mad Man ' However.

MaizieD Sun 16-Feb-20 18:19:31

No, Johnson didn't come up with the idea, but he is approving its revival. So it's as good as his.

I actually think it was a diversionary tactic from Gove's announcement that our borders with the EU will be subject to full border controls after 2020; a huge change from pre-referendum soothing noises about frictionless trade post Brexit. A bit of 'project fear' come true, really.

But it's kept us going for a few days, hasn't it? And not a word about border controls... Job done, No. 10

growstuff Sun 16-Feb-20 18:41:54

There are also rumours that the budget is going to be delayed by months. If that's true, the public won't find out for ages how vanity projects will be financed. All the promises can be spun out for a bit longer before the reality kicks in.

Johnson has form with his distracting "bread and circuses". Don't be fooled. Keep an eye on the main issues and watch how he dodges accountability.

POGS Sun 16-Feb-20 19:24:54

Maizied

' I actually think it was a diversionary tactic from Gove's announcement that our borders with the EU will be subject to full border controls after 2020; a huge change from pre-referendum soothing noises about frictionless trade post Brexit. A bit of 'project fear' come true, really.'
--
I don' t follow your logic.

If there is full border control after 2020 what is the difference between having a bridge, a ferry, shipping, or air travel?

It is not the method or mode of traffic of goods or people it is whether or not Northern Ireland and Scotland are in the EU or in the UK at any given time.

MaizieD Sun 16-Feb-20 20:02:32

It was a tactic to divert attention from the news that there would be full border controls to all goods after 2020. Barriers to trade. No more 'frictionless trade' with the EU, our largest trading partner.

Which they will reciprocate. Which will put a good many small business out of business and increase costs for those which are large enough to carry on. Not to mention completely bringing to halt the Just In Time model of trade which many businesses have developed over the past few decades.

This was not what was promised by the Leave campaigners.

Here are some traders who are rather upset about this:

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1227893586248814593.html

POGS Sun 16-Feb-20 20:49:16

It would have been a ' tactic' whenever / whatever Johnson announced anything now or in the future to some.

There is no point in ' surmising ' anything or creating conspiracy theories it is the ' facts ' and content of the feasibility, cost, politics behind a bridge joining Northern Ireland and Scotland that is the question

growstuff Sun 16-Feb-20 21:18:53

POGS,

a) It's a diversionary tactic because people have spent more time discussing the hypothetical bridge than they have real issues.

b) At one stage, Johnson was talking about a bridge to Northern Ireland as a way of avoiding the need for border controls. The idea was that the bridge could be used just as any other bridge within the UK is used.

That still didn't address the issue of controls between NI and the RoI, but he shrugged that off in the interview I saw.

MaizieD Sun 16-Feb-20 21:35:47

No, POGS; this is all about managing public perceptions. Politicians have done it for years. Do you not remember this outcry after 9/11?

Ms Moore had faced widespread calls for her to quit since sending an e-mail as New York's twin towers burned, suggesting that 11 September was a good day to "bury" bad news.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/1823120.stm

MaizieD Sun 16-Feb-20 21:44:49

That still didn't address the issue of controls between NI and the RoI, but he shrugged that off in the interview I saw.

Johnson, and now his new NI Secretary, has been lying through his teeth about this. There absolutely will be checks at the liquid NI border because it is de facto an EU border and checks will have to be made.

(The Full Fact article I've linked to omits the SPS checks which will be obligatory on live or dead animals. So, customs checks on goods and inspection of animals)

fullfact.org/europe/eu-referendum-and-irish-border/

POGS Sun 16-Feb-20 21:49:31

Maizied

Yes I do remember the Labour Party were in a big pickle at the time over it. It was indeed crass to say the least and she paid a price.

If just regurgitating that information means proving a point, stating something is being used as a ' tactic ' then feel free to keep using it as such.

I personally think it serves no purpose other than giving an example of political tactics.

POGS Sun 16-Feb-20 21:56:38

There are two conversations going on.

A). The feasibility of a Bridge between Northern Ireland and Scotland.

B). Future possible customs arrangements between Northern Ireland and the other 3 countries in the EU.

MaizieD Sun 16-Feb-20 21:57:46

I personally think it serves no purpose other than giving an example of political tactics.

And I am saying that the publicity about the bridge is a political tactic. I really don't know why you are denying this.

Though no doubt you would love to paint me as a loopy conspiracy theorist...

POGS Sun 16-Feb-20 22:01:20

'And I am saying that the publicity about the bridge is a political tactic. I really don't know why you are denying this.'
---

Because I deal in facts. That's your ' opinion' not a ' fact ' albeit one that is shared by the like minded.

Labaik Sun 16-Feb-20 23:06:55

So do you actually believe that Johnson plans to build a bridge?

growstuff Sun 16-Feb-20 23:07:02

POGS Are you seriously suggesting people should ignore what's happening in broad daylight in front of our eyes? Johnson is hardly likely to state that he's trying to stop people commenting about serious issues by offering something controversial for people to talk about. He's really not going to spell it out.

Urmstongran Mon 17-Feb-20 11:20:50

Maybe it’s a fanciful ‘look - a SQUIRREL!’ divert tactic?

MaizieD Mon 17-Feb-20 11:37:45

No conspiracy theories please, Ug wink

Urmstongran Mon 17-Feb-20 12:59:04

😂😂

POGS Mon 17-Feb-20 15:36:16

Labaik Sun 16-Feb-20 23:06:55

'So do you actually believe that Johnson plans to build a bridge?'
---

If you are asking me that question then my answer would be not a clue. I have posted I don't know the feasibility of building the bridge if you read my posts.

I have pointed out the fact this was mooted not by Boris Johnson but an idea put forward by the architect Alan Dunlop and it was discussed by the Northern Ireland and Scottish governments at one time. Yet Boris Johnson is the ' Mad' politician.

If it is feasible and the plan goes ahead I repeat I am only interested in Who benefits at that time and who should pay for it.

Urmstongran Mon 17-Feb-20 15:50:26

In today’s political climate, knowing Boris is unchallenged and we have no credible opposition (yet, or ... ?even in April) this thread will probably run for the next 4 years as it’s nicely open-ended.

POGS Mon 17-Feb-20 16:17:29

growstuff Sun 16-Feb-20 23:07:02

'POGS Are you seriously suggesting people should ignore what's happening in broad daylight in front of our eyes?'

Johnson is hardly likely to state that he's trying to stop people commenting about serious issues by offering something controversial for people to talk about. He's really not going to spell it out.
-
Ridiculous comment.

I have never suggested anybody ignores anything in broad daylight or any other ruddy light.

Again it is ' your ' opinion that Johnson is using 'tactics' in your second paragraph, if I read your post to me correctly.

Whether or not ' tactics' are at play is a case of each to his/her own opinion.

If discussing the ' facts ' as I know them is deemed as suggesting others ignore anything then I don't know really how to answer that accusation.

Nezumi65 Mon 17-Feb-20 19:48:59

I’m now more concerned by his acceptance of a eugenicist in Downing Street than yet another megalomaniac Boris Bridge load of nonsense.

I think we should just laugh at the bridge - or get him to lay the first stone on the weapons dump or something - and concentrate on the shift to the far right.

Iam64 Mon 17-Feb-20 19:50:49

Nezumi65 -couldn't agree more. The bridge is a joke, an attempt to grab the headlines no more.

this eugenicist with his racist, misogynist views is another thing all together. Terrifying to think our PM can accept someone with such views.

Iam64 Mon 17-Feb-20 20:01:54

YEY he's resigned (not Mr Johnson of course)

Labaik Mon 17-Feb-20 20:02:25

...he has no choice.....

SirChenjin Mon 17-Feb-20 20:05:03

He should not have been left in post long enough to resign - he should never have been hired in the first place.

growstuff Mon 17-Feb-20 20:29:08

You really are a charmer POGS. hmm Open your eyes, if broad daylight (or any other light) doesn't affect you.

The time spent reading your posts is time I won't get back.

POGS Mon 17-Feb-20 20:33:29

growstuff Mon 17-Feb-20 20:29:0

'You really are a charmer POGS. hmm'
----

How kind. Thank you.