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Sovereignty and 'take back control'

(345 Posts)
MaizieD Fri 08-Sep-17 10:28:09

In view of developments in Parliament over the past few days, such as the 'Henry VII' clause in the Repeal Bill and moves to give the government a majority in House of Commons Select committees , I am wondering just what people who voted Leave understand by the concept of 'Sovereignty' and if they are at all worried by the Government's attempts to bypass Parliamentary scrutiny of legislation and amendments to legislation?

POGS Fri 08-Sep-17 11:02:20

'moves to give the government a majority in House of Commons Select committees , '

Not heard about this Maizie d can you give more detail please.

yggdrasil Fri 08-Sep-17 11:09:28

It's here.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-rigging-parliament-committee-of-selection-standing-committees_uk_59b1a514e4b0dfaafcf68a04

or

tinyurl.com/yb9zsvmo

mostlyharmless Fri 08-Sep-17 11:14:58

Both Henry VIII powers and manipulating a Tory majority on the select Committees are alarming. Very undemocratic for what is really a minority government.

Taking back control from EU to hand it over to a shadowy system in the U.K. government.

I don't think May has a mandate to do anything at present. She is under attack from all sides.

Welshwife Fri 08-Sep-17 11:26:35

If this goes through the UK will have such an undemocratic Govt - they will have powers to change so much with no discussion and no agreement with the elected MPs etc. It will be interesting to see how it pans out and how the hard line Brexiteers react to this. With any luck there will enough opposition to it that it doesn't get into the statute books.

The majority on Select Committees is just thumbs on noses job to the electorate - they have always been so fairly made up - even to who is the chairman - up till now no matter who is in Govt.

TriciaF Fri 08-Sep-17 13:11:29

We find it very worrying, Welshwife.
We're possibly returning 'home ' next year.
I've resorted to prayer ( it can't hurt!)

CherryHatrick Fri 08-Sep-17 13:21:32

I have only one thought for the Brexiters; you reap what you sow and may your god help you with the harvest.

I have no intention of returning "home", TriciaF, I shall take my chances here, changing nationality if necessary.

Welshwife Fri 08-Sep-17 13:46:49

I find this whole thing pervades all decisions we make now. We would like to sell and buy a smaller place with a much smaller garden - but what happens if Brexit really turns sour and the position of Brits in EU changes badly - I do not want to move twice.

I so understand how you feel Cherry - but then I think of the grand children who are young adults and just starting out with their lives.

Cherrytree59 Fri 08-Sep-17 13:57:21

Hello Cherryhatrick
Nice namesmile

Do you mind me asking where you live at present?
Do you have family in the UK.
At the moment it seems the uncertainty is a big issue for the UK
ex-pats on GN.

Day6 Fri 08-Sep-17 14:07:26

Am I alone in thinking many Remainers were shouting from the rooftops about the wonderful laws we had because of EU jurisdiction?

They said how awful it would be that we'd have to have our own laws.

Now we can transfer those laws from the EU to the UK they are again finding fault.

There are far too many legal and opposition watchdogs in the UK for there to be any tyranny in adopting and enforcing laws.

Let's face it, Theresa May only has to change her shoes and commentators are on to it and miles of column space is devoted to it.

Remainers seriously think if laws are abused or amended it will happen secretly?

Well, use this as a stick to beat all those wanting out of the EU, and the Tory party, but it really is quite sad that every step of the way you'll pick holes in any Brexit negotiations.

How about we let things evolve, as they have to, because imagining the worst case scenario, as seen in your crystal balls, must be ever so stressful and tiring.

You aren't fooling anyone by creating scare tactics.

Open and transparent are the buzz words of the world in which we live. Stop pretending there will be cover ups and abuses.

It's all anti-Brexit rhetoric and some Labour MPs are determined to obstruct the process.

What's new?

Day6 Fri 08-Sep-17 14:11:09

*Theresa May has been accused of “rigging” Parliament to defy the result of the general election and give Tory MPs majority control over all legislation.

In what Labour called “an unprecedented power grab” ahead of Brexit *

Look at the source.

It's a Labour generated headline, and as discussed on so many programmes yesterday, another attempt by Labour to stall Brexit negotiations.

It's pathetic.

CherryHatrick Fri 08-Sep-17 14:33:29

Welshwife I feel sorry for the young people too; so many things they will miss out on. My SGCs have been coming to Spain all their lives as their other GPs lived here as well, but they bailed out and moved back two years ago. One GC started Uni last year and the other two this year. So many lost opportunities. Having said that, I was here before Spain joined the EU. When my younger daughter left school, her first employer had to take on two Spanish workers in order for her to get a work permit. This is what may happen again in the future.

CherryTree59 as you will have gathered, I am in Spain. I have no fear of being thrown out after Brexit, firstly because the Spanish Gov. have already declared that they would not do that, but also I am married to a Swiss National so could piggyback on his residency anyway for the time being. I say for the time being because the Swiss have recently voted to stop the free movement of people and at some point their Gov. will have to implement this. No free movement of people equals no freedom of movement for anything else, and so the agreement they have with the EU will break down. Our biggest worry has always been the continuance of health cover for pensioners, as although DH is Swiss, the larger part of his pension comes from the UK and they pay for his cover.

Smileless2012 Fri 08-Sep-17 14:36:19

In answer to your question Mazie and as a leave voter, I'm not worried. What worries me is the never ending rhetoric to derail the Brexit negotiations.

Brexit isn't and shouldn't be about party politics. It's about getting the best result for when we leave the EU and all political parties should be working together to achieve this.

The scare mongering tactics weren't successful in persuading the majority who voted to leave, to vote remain and we can only hope that the same tactics won't be successful in derailing the negotiations.

Two good posts Day6. I agree with you that "it's pathetic", precisely what Mr. S. said yesterday and he voted remain.

CherryHatrick Fri 08-Sep-17 14:39:23

Day6
Remainers seriously think if laws are abused or amended it will happen secretly?

No, I do not think it will happen secretly; if this bill is passed as it stands, I think it will be done brazenly, with the Tory Party crowing that the Opposition gave them permission to do whatever they like.

Day6 Fri 08-Sep-17 15:03:10

I repeat.

Open and transparent are the buzz words of the world in which we live. Stop pretending there will be cover ups and abuses.

It's all anti-Brexit rhetoric and some Labour MPs are determined to obstruct the process.

mostlyharmless Fri 08-Sep-17 16:04:19

Day6 it has been reported widely in the media today about the House of Commons committees being rigged by the Tories. I heard it on Radio 4 Today programme this morning and I see the same news item being reported on Sky News, The Guardian, The Mirror, even The Express (which is definitely not a labour supporting paper!)

It is an assault on our Parliamentary system which has always been so careful to be even handed. For a minority government to do this is unheard of.

May is in a tight corner trying to force a very difficult policy
through the Parliamentary system. That's no excuse for abusing Parliamentary Sovereignty.

devongirl Fri 08-Sep-17 16:29:36

Day6

*Am I alone in thinking many Remainers were shouting from the rooftops about the wonderful laws we had because of EU jurisdiction?

They said how awful it would be that we'd have to have our own laws.

Now we can transfer those laws from the EU to the UK they are again finding fault.*

I for one (a remainer) am not objecting to the wholesale importation of EU laws, where did you get that idea from? What we are objecting to is what is going to happen after they have been incorporated into UK law, as posters above have described.

lemongrove Fri 08-Sep-17 16:59:55

It's the only way apparently to get the thousands and thousands of laws onto the statute books in time for exiting the EU.It was said that even if 35 were debated in Parliament every single day between now and 2019 it couldn't be done.

TriciaF Fri 08-Sep-17 17:16:40

I can see that, lemongrove.
But surely there could be a more general motion, a condensaton of the agreements, to be debated in full Parliament?
And put forward for a referendum?
As happened when the decision was taken to join the EU in 1975.

MaizieD Fri 08-Sep-17 17:41:37

Thanks for replies so far, but no Leavers have explained what they understand by 'sovereignty'. Which is what I really wanted to know.

And I'm trying not to express any opinion on this as I didn't want it to become an argument. It's a request for information/enlightenment.

lemongrove Fri 08-Sep-17 17:41:37

I don't know if it could TriciaF As laws need to be watertight, I see what you mean, but probably they would have done this if it had been an option.
It may not be ideal, but I imagine most of the laws could go through unchanged, and only any contentious ones be debated?

TriciaF Fri 08-Sep-17 18:18:51

Maizie my understanding of 'sovereignty' is the legal powers which belong to a king or queen of the time. Especially relating to the equivalent powers of the 2 houses of Parliament.
But I'm not a 'leaver.'

whitewave Fri 08-Sep-17 18:27:21

So next week May is trying to force through two votes which in my view will rig our democratic process.

The first is the second reading of the Repeal Bill, which will give the government unprecedented powers to make laws without consulting our parliamentary representatives.

The second vote will guarantee this minority government a majority in important legislative and scrutiny committees.
In effect they are gerrymandering their advantage on these committees.

whitewave Fri 08-Sep-17 18:28:55

If Tory Remainers are worth their word then they must step up to oppose this. By these votes will you know them.

POGS Fri 08-Sep-17 20:08:03

Maizie d / yggdrasil

Sorry I have been out since 1.00 pm. When I asked the question this morning I genuinely had not picked up on this.

Blow me at 12.00 I was watching Daily Politics and it was being discussed.

I don't honestly know what to think at the moment because both sides of the argument regarding the Repeal Bill and the
Select Committee issue have made valid points.

I will listen further to the debates in Parliament presumably starting again Monday and try to make my decision as to what I think. It is not a black and white issue the grey area is complicated and I need to hear more from the lips of the MP's not the media.

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