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Liar, liar, pants on fire!

(106 Posts)
GillT57 Wed 04-Jul-18 16:28:39

So, Esther McVey has been forced to apologise to the HoC this afternoon. In the House, they are not permitted to call another member a liar, but that is what she is and she has been found out and exposed as such by the National Audit Office (NAO). This was no misunderstanding, it was deliberate. Lots of reports, choose your source.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/esther-mcvey-apology-misleading-parliament-universal-credit-welfare-programme-secretary-a8430796.htm

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/04/esther-mcvey-welfare-secretary-misled-parliament-over-reforms-auditors-say

Allygran1 Wed 04-Jul-18 16:32:45

Your point is GillT?

Bridgeit Wed 04-Jul-18 16:40:44

If this is correct,then I am not sure that an apology is enough.

GillT57 Wed 04-Jul-18 16:44:51

Sigh. My point is Ally that Ms McVey has today been outed as having deliberately misled/lied to the HoC. Threw it in for discussion. Used links instead of massive pages of cut and paste. Bridgeit understood what I had posted. The point is, she has contravened parliamentary rules regarding how questions are answered, and I was hoping maybe we could discuss it?

GillT57 Wed 04-Jul-18 16:46:52

It was breaking news on Radio 4 this afternoon and the broadcast from the HoC was astonishing as she obfuscated and 'double talked' until your head span! Frank Field very unhappy. It is a sorry state when the NAO has to publicly reprimand a member of Parliament.

Bridgeit Wed 04-Jul-18 16:56:01

The article shows the severity of it.

MaizieD Wed 04-Jul-18 17:07:45

Ministerial Code: Section 1.3c

^c. It is of paramount importance that Ministers give
accurate and truthful information to Parliament,
correcting any inadvertent error at the earliest
opportunity. Ministers who knowingly mislead
Parliament will be expected to offer their resignation to
the Prime Minister;^

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/672633/2018-01-08_MINISTERIAL_CODE_JANUARY_2018__FINAL___3_.pdf

jura2 Wed 04-Jul-18 17:08:20

I would add a big ‘S’ to the title ... re the confirmed revelations on the leave campaign today

yggdrasil Wed 04-Jul-18 17:13:57

There was a time when lying to the House, even inadvertently, would have led to instant resignation.
And this was no 'mistake' , she clearly claimed the NAO said the opposite of what they actually said.
There is no honour today among MPs

varian Wed 04-Jul-18 17:16:33

The Work and Pensions Secretary, Esther McVey, was told that parts of her statement about Universal Credit were incorrect and unproven.

James O'Brien on LBC said this shows the classic concepts of Collective Cabinet Responsibility and Individual Ministerial Responsibility are dead.

He said: "There are some invisible conventions that hold our democracy together. Collective cabinet responsibility is one of them. That is the idea that everyone in the Cabinet, after a period of debate and reflection, will agree to pursue a given policy..........

If Esther McVey keeps her job, it's an absolute trashing of the Ministerial code. "Wilfully misleading Parliament. That's what Damian Green lost his job for, remember? Wilfully misleading Parliament, that's what she's done."

www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obrien-schools-brexiteer-vote-leave-rules/

MaizieD Wed 04-Jul-18 17:21:47

Some fine irony from Our Leader in her introduction to the Ministerial Code:

The values it promotes should underpin our conduct as we tackle the challenges of our times and seek to build that fairer Britain, a country of genuine opportunity for all where everyone plays by the same rules.....

(I've already posted a link.)

MawBroon Wed 04-Jul-18 17:28:00

Could we possibly discuss a political issue without banging on about Leave vs Remain Jura2?
McVey either lied or is grossly incompetent and convinced that black is white or indeed possibly both.
She cannot claim she “misspoke” but categorically assured the House of the opposite of the truth.
Of course she should be sacked.
But please, please, please can we restrict all the (interminable) Brexit discussion to one of the several Brexit threads?

maryeliza54 Wed 04-Jul-18 17:28:53

Sorry - didn’t see this thread, started another one

Allygran1 Wed 04-Jul-18 17:29:53

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The misleading of parliament is the knowing presentation of false information to parliament, a very serious charge in Westminster-style parliamentary assemblies.[1][2] Government ministers that are found to have misled parliament will generally lose their ministerial portfolio. By convention, a minister found to have misled parliament is expected to resign or face being sacked.[citation needed] The Scottish Government ministerial code requires ministers to resign if they mislead Parliament.[3][4] ".

The operative word here is 'knowing". She has therefore within the conventions of Parliamentary behaviour, "inadvertently" mislead Parliament, and has apologised.

maryeliza54 Wed 04-Jul-18 17:30:56

Absolutely unprecedented for the NAO to publish an open letter like this. She should go but won’t of course - just another example of this morally corrupt government. She’s in good company.

This is what I posted. Ally you are a hoot

Allygran1 Wed 04-Jul-18 17:31:52

MAWBroon, yes I agree, on your Brexit plea.

varian Wed 04-Jul-18 17:34:14

I can see where you're coming from, Maw, a lot of folk are obviously suffering from brexit fatigue, but the fact is that brexit is the most important political issue of our times and there are so many repercussions.

Jura has understandably, on a thread about dishonesty in politics, flagged up the awful revelations only now coming to light about the cheating and lying involved in the leave campaign. If they are allowed to succeed, the lying brexiters will not only destroy our nations future but they will have torn to shreds any international reputation we ever had for fairplay.

MawBroon Wed 04-Jul-18 17:35:42

If that was “inadvertent”Allygran she is clearly incompetent.
There is a difference between “quicker” and “more slowly”.
It is like driving on the wrong carriageway on the motorway- at the very least you lose your licence (if you couldn’t tell the difference) at worst you may be charged with dangerous driving and endangering life and limb.
No excuses are possible.

Allygran1 Wed 04-Jul-18 17:36:33

Varian can you explain how you know that Esther McVey has 'wilfully" mislead Parliament? The words in this really matter. Clearly you somehow have knowledge that she mislead parliament 'wilfully' and deliberately, from what you say? Please share your information.

jura2 Wed 04-Jul-18 17:38:27

it is sadly, all linked. And the lies are not lost on the EU population, the world at large, World TV and Press.

MawBroon Wed 04-Jul-18 17:38:52

I can see where you're coming from, Maw, a lot of folk are obviously suffering from brexit fatigue, but the fact is that brexit is the most important political issue of our times and there are so many repercussions

And that is why there are no less than Four current threads on the issue of Brexit.
How many more does anybody want? .
This is about UC , why change the subject or hijack it to talk about Brexit?

MawBroon Wed 04-Jul-18 17:40:27

UC is NOT linked to Brexit <sigh>

Hard to find a Brexitfree thread apart from “Games” at this rate hmm

lemongrove Wed 04-Jul-18 17:42:49

I agree with you Maw Brexit has nothing at all to do with this thread but some are like a dog with a bone.

Ester McVey may well be incompetent, who knows, but if she has lied or misled Parliament on purpose ( she wouldn’t be the first, in all governments, as we have seen over the years) then she will no doubt have to resign.

GillT57 Wed 04-Jul-18 17:43:10

There was nothing inadvertent or accidentally misleading about what she originally said. She has been found out, and as many have pointed out, had contravened strict parliamentary rules. Such serious contraventions have previously led to resignations and sackings but so far all we have had is a snorting dismissal of the NAO by her boss Ian Duncan-Smith.

Allygran1 Wed 04-Jul-18 17:45:18

Mawbroon, I do take your point. However, it's all in the words, can it be proven that she 'wilfully' and deliberately mislead Parliament? This is the issue. Tony Blair was accused of 'wilfully' misleading Parliament over the Iraq war, and it was and has been proven since that he did, mislead us all, however, that one has been dodged for years. As has the war crimes issue.

If Esther McVey got up on the morning of her speech and deliberately and 'wilfully' thought I am going to mislead Parliament then she should resign. However, how do you prove and to be frank why would she, 'wilfully and deliberately mislead Parliament on this matter.

Varian seems to have more information that proves that Esther MCVey did 'wilfully' and deliberately mislead Parliament so once we see that info, it might make things clearer.

There are no excuses if it was 'wilfully' misleading, but proving that will be I imagine impossible.

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