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Is the UK Union now at risk.

(155 Posts)
MarthaBeck Sun 11-Aug-19 12:36:52

Gordon Brown writing in today’s states that growing nationalism is pulling the United Kingdom apart, driving it towards an unprecedented economic calamity and unleashing the most serious constitutional crisis since the 17th century.
he says unionism is “sleepwalking into oblivion”, fuelled by a “destructive, populist, nationalist ideology” deployed by Boris Johnson.
“If we are to understand why we are facing not only our most serious constitutional crisis since the 17th century but at the same time an unprecedented economic calamity precipitated by a no-deal exit from the European Union, we must recognise that nationalism is now driving British politics,” he writes.
“It follows that only thus - as an outward-looking, tolerant, fair-minded and pragmatic people - can Britain recover its cohesion and common purpose. These precious ideals could not survive the divisiveness and chaos of a no-deal Brexit. To prevent the rise and rise of dysfunctional nationalism the first step is to stop no-deal in its tracks.”

His comments come amid mounting fears that a no-deal Brexit would hasten the end of Scotland’s membership of the UK. Three-fifths of Scottish voters (60%) believe that support for Scottish independence would increase after a no-deal Brexit, according to new Focaldata polling for the anti-racist Hope Not Hate campaign. Most Tory supporters said they regarded the end of the union as a price worth paying to achieve Brexit. Some 57% of Conservative party supporters agreed with this view, in a separate UK-wide poll of 3,200 adults for Hope Not Hate.
I would be interested to hear other views, is Brexit worth putting the UK Union at risk, what benefits would we gain to make it worth while.?

Personally, I am utterly sick of this Brexit sickness, which is tearing our country and even families apart for sheer dogma.

dragonfly46 Sun 11-Aug-19 12:40:37

I am not a fan of Gordon Brown but he is talking sense. It would seem we are not only coming out of Europe but the United Kingdom as well. It is all very sad.

quizqueen Sun 11-Aug-19 12:44:03

A lot of Scottish people have always seemed to hate the English. If they want to go, let them go, but they should be made to provide for themselves in all respects so no using the £ or BBC tv etc. It won't be England who suffers

growstuff Sun 11-Aug-19 12:46:35

Good grief! Why so aggressive and partisan?

A lot of Scots actually live in England and lots of those in Scotland don't hate the English.

This sounds like football fan banter.

GracesGranMK3 Sun 11-Aug-19 13:15:53

I have heard other comments like QQs. Of course, they are only coming from a small, self-selected sample but they do all seem to be extreme Brexiteers who haven't a clue about how the world works. Unfortunately, they do have a vote.

Dinahmo Sun 11-Aug-19 13:44:36

A few years ago we were on holiday on Sicily with a group of Scots. It was a tour and so we were thrown together. They were very friendly but were surprised to find out that we knew anything about Scotland. My husband mentioned Charles Rennie Mackintosh as we greatly admire his work. We told them that around 1970 we went to Glasgow, having arranged a tour around the School of Art where we were shown one store room piled high with Mackintosh's furniture and another with chests of drawers containing his watercolours and those of the MacDonald sisters. They were gobsmacked to say the least at this.

We came to the conclusion that some of them expected us to be a bit sniffy about Scotland in the same way as some English are apparently sniffy about Scotland but I haven't met any from either country who feel like that.

paddyann Sun 11-Aug-19 13:50:50

We dont hate the english Quizqueen we hate Westminster and it scontrol over us .Scotland more than pays its wayand in fact can check for yourself Philip Hammond said very recently England needs Scottish funds to survive ,Maybe do some research befor spouting rubbish!
I am very vocal in my support of Independence as you will know .I have an English SIL and GD ,English Aunts and cousns and even English ancestors on my tree ....shock here for you ENGLISH relatives including SIL who was a tory and voted NO in the 2014 referendum are ALL pro independence now .Go figure that .Could it have been the lies and deception.the fact that Ruth Davidson had access to postal vote results BEFORE the polls had closed or Gordon Browns Vow of a Federal Britain with MAXI devolution.Maybe it was just all of it .Polls show a YES vote of 52% not counting EU citizens who voted no last time because they were told it was the only way to stay IN the EU ..look how that turned out ..and 16-17 year olds.The polls on 16-24 year old show 82 % would vote for Independence

FarNorth Sun 11-Aug-19 14:25:14

they should be made to provide for themselves in all respects so no using the £ or BBC tv etc.

Absolutely, they/we should do that. The sooner the better.

growstuff Sun 11-Aug-19 14:38:58

Who are "they"? Nearly half of "them" want to remain in the Union.

I really hate this kind of tribalism. FWIW I live in one of the wealthiest areas of England. We pay far more in council tax than we get back and I'm pretty sure the same is true of income tax and corporation tax. We have almost zero unemployment and businesses thrive because there is surplus cash in circulation.

How about we declare independence and leave the poorer areas to fend for themselves? As far as I'm concerned, if people really care for their country, they should all be in it together, not squabbling with each other like toddlers.

Davidhs Sun 11-Aug-19 14:55:26

“Is the union at risk”. It has been at risk for some time because since devolution we have regarded ourselves as English, Scots, Welsh, instead of British. That leads to all sorts of claims of unfairness or bias, my own personal view is that the Scots should be independent and then they would stop complaining they are disadvantaged.

Day6 Sun 11-Aug-19 15:04:24

Gordon Brown writing in today’s states that growing nationalism is pulling the United Kingdom apart

Oh dear <sigh>

It's relentless, isn't it, this Remainer scaremongering? I have to smile (oh and I'll be taken to task for that, no doubt. Wait.)

Gordon Brown torpedoed his election campaign by scorning a Labour supporter concerned about the changing face of her town and unchecked immigration. She was a "bigoted woman" once he was off camera and no longer schmoozing the electorate.

Two-faced hypocrisy and no concern for his supporter's valid worries. (We got the referendum because this had become a nationwide concern which our politicians had for years and years refused to address. It became a policy and manifesto issue. All of a sudden every political leader knew they had to address the concern instead of sweeping it under the carpet.)

Now this well known Remainer predicts doom and gloom because of Brexit - the Union breaking apart, etc.

Reality check. People aren't really that bothered because we all know it is the POLITICALLY ACTIVE who make these biased predictions, and Labour man and Remainer Gordon Brown is as biased as they come. He wants panic and fear to strike Leavers, as do many Remainers posting here.

I am waiting for the post "*Abyss Alert! It really HAS opened up!*

We are all going to fall into it because gullible, (surprise silly over 17 million people voting the EU Referendum in 2016 dared put their X in the wrong box! How could they!

Hysterical Remainers are doing their utmost to whip up their 'all is lost fervour' where ever they can.

The Scots may want independence - let them have it, but last time I looked their were no uprisings in Northern Ireland or Wales. Sadly, Gordon Brown's Remain pronouncements carry no weight or legitimacy for me and millions of others in the UK.

There is a new Remainer 'end of the world' thread most days. The Brexit Abyss thread cannot be far off...... grin

Day6 Sun 11-Aug-19 15:06:36

my own personal view is that the Scots should be independent and then they would stop complaining they are disadvantaged.

Mine too, Davidhs.

Day6 Sun 11-Aug-19 15:12:58

Gracesgran writes

Brexiteers who haven't a clue about how the world works Unfortunately, they do have a vote

You think this sort of slur/insult, elitist put-down would have died a death by now, wouldn't you, but some like Remainer Gracesgran really DO think that all Leavers are ignorant.

She despises people who do not share her view. Can you believe she hates Leavers having a say? Such intolerance is shameful.

Anniebach Sun 11-Aug-19 15:20:22

I have never thought of myself as British, I am Welsh but do not want the breakup of the U.K.

RosieLeah Sun 11-Aug-19 15:31:50 refreshing to have someone point out the obvious. I no longer contribute to the political threads because it is pointless. The 'other half' refuse to accept any viewpoint except their own and it's impossible to have a rational discussion. GracesGran and her cronies resort to insults instead of a reasoned argument and you can't have a decent conversation with people like them.

They way they talk, you would think it was the English pressing for Scotland to be independent. As for regarding ourselves as British. Many of the remainers on here have stated several times, that they regard themselves firstly as European.

SirChenjin Sun 11-Aug-19 15:51:47

I’m a firm believer in the union and have had correct some of the nationalist nonsense on here that is factually inaccurate. However I do agree with Gordon Brown to an extent - I don’t think Wales will necessarily go its own way but I can certainly see reunification for Ireland and I think that Scottish independence will come, unless the couple of years post Brexit brings about significant benefits to each part of the U.K. It doesn’t look like that’s going to happen so I think Scotland will certainly go out on its own, with Ireland following. The shambles at Westminster can’t be ignored any longer - it’s brought about too much of a significant change, and not for the better.

jura2 Sun 11-Aug-19 15:58:59

Firm believer in the Union too- but the way Scotland has been treated since the Ref- I can truly see why they would want to go their own way- and do very well out of it. I am sure many people would move there, and many businesses and big business at that. And tourism would boom too.

But having relatives and friends in NI- I cannot see reunification happening without very very serious trouble.

growstuff Sun 11-Aug-19 16:01:19

I was born in England, as were all my ancestors I have ever been able to trace, but I regard myself as British, so no English nationalist speaks for me.

growstuff Sun 11-Aug-19 16:02:48

To be honest, the hysteria seems to be coming from you, Day6.

growstuff Sun 11-Aug-19 16:05:04

Please could London and some of the other cities become city states and leave the woolly backers to their own destinies? ;-)

Aspen Sun 11-Aug-19 16:10:27

I would like to recommend to everyone that they read the McCrone report. Find it on Wikipedia.

jura2 Sun 11-Aug-19 16:13:47

Indeed 'To be honest, the hysteria seems to be coming from you, Day6.'

SirChenjin Sun 11-Aug-19 16:15:07

Agree jura - I think there will be a lot of trouble before reunification, if/when it comes.

I’m still not prepared to vote ‘yes’ in a Scottish independence referendum because Sturgeon isn’t offering anything more than she did the last time. If she were to set out her stall for rejoining or remaining in the EU with good terms for Scotland and BJ et all continued on their extreme right wing path of destruction then I’d vote yes (and then vote to get the SNP the hell out ASAP) - and I never thought I’d vote for Scottish independence. I imagine there’s many like me up here.

Pantglas1 Sun 11-Aug-19 16:19:47

What is a woolly backer?

dragonfly46 Sun 11-Aug-19 16:22:21

RosieLeah and Day6 I am getting tired of you insulting me for no reason.

I am a remainer, I do not vote Labour, I am a European but I am also British as one does not preclude the other.

I do not insult you all the time for your beliefs, although I am not clear what they are apart from leaving the EU at all costs as all you do is to insult anyone who voted to remain putting words into our mouths.

I am happy to agree to differ with you and I respect your beliefs but please stop your unnecessary insults.