Think for yourself

Over to you Anja please start one that is not Brexit connected

This is not about Brexit! You have just proved my point. This is about people thinking things through and if anything is about how set in their views many on this site are. And it reflects how hard it is to change opinions.

I doubt very much that anyone's opinion will be changed on here, Anja!

But I do know what you mean. Especially on political threads. It's like Groundhog Day in there.

I have certainly changed my opinion ion on the B word recently. Having been a staunch Remainer I now think we should just get on with it and mop up the consequences!

My feelings too Anja

Why should someone change their opinion/view on a subject that they think is right to them ? There are still many of us who are not members of the " herd mentality ".

Well, how wonderful of you to return and point out the error of our ways, Anja, if that is your name.

Nice try, anja! Its not going to happen though!

? What is going on?

I accept that everyone has their own viewpoint on any subject and can feel very strongly about things, however, what I find disappointing is when someone posts a differing opinion the debate can become unpleasant.

Calm down eazy and yes, this has been my name for quite a while.

This is a wider discussion than just the B word. In fact it transcends even politics inasmuch as it is about the ability to change your own mind on a view you held dear.

It could be about raising children as one example. Many on here who look after grandchildren will have found this. But please don’t get hung up on that one.

Re your point Becket if people took more time to understand the point being made by someone else then perhaps the discussion wouldn’t turn nasty.

I admit to getting annoyed myself. Not because if the views that others hold but by their entrenched position. A willingness to stop and just consider is lacking. Is it the age of people or we’re some people always this way!

I think that seeing thoughts written down can sometimes help me be self-critical and think things through more logically than just having thoughts and feelings whizzing round my head.

We could probably do with somebody with a background in psychology to explain the connection between feelings, based on gut instinct, learnt behaviour, etc and rational thought.

It's quite difficult to change people's views, even based on logical argument. I think the term is cognitive dissonance.

PS. Going out for a while, but this is an interesting topic.

" if people took more time to understand the point being made "------Would this be your point, Anja ??

BTW From what I know, CBT is about changing deeply ingrained views, if they affect mood.

I’ve changed my views on several topics over the years, I’m not sure though, if this is more a sign of weakness, too willing to believe what I hear? than flexibility.

I think we should all have an open mind, but I’m not certain our opinions are ever entirely our own, I think we’re easily influenced by people we admire.

What do you mean by weakness? That implies that it's wrong to change one's mind when faced by evidence which challenges your view.

I think people do become more entrenched in their views as they become elderly.

One theory on learning that I found very useful was this:

You have a 'jigsaw' picture of a topic and also the world around you built up on past knowledge, experiences and the views of others (especially family, parents, close friends).

When you gain a new 'piece' it's simple to slot that in - if it agrees with your 'jigsaw'. If it doesn't agree, however, it requires a monumental effort of rearrangement (maybe a dismantling and rebuilding) of your entire jigsaw and you may have an entirely different picture! Many people will resist this great effort and just reject the new piece, despite logic and sound evidence!

Perhaps the elderly are just too tired to attempt the task of a change of view and are more likely to be deniers.

Anja I agree that things wouldn't get nasty if people took the time to understand the point being made. I don't think anyone's mind would be changed by a discussion on this forum but understanding why someone thinks the way they do is always preferential to using words and phrases like "stupid" "have a modicum of intelligence"

I change my mind on stuff. ie I was totally against the legalistation of drugs but a policeman changed my mind with reasoned argument (not the shouty kind) and well-researched facts and figures and a cogent plan for implementation. His main thrust was wresting control from organised crime, harm prevention, reduction of robbery etc and taxation. When he broke down crime figures and demonstrated just how much crime is drug-driven it was even clearer to me.

One thing that entrenches views is the shouty kind of argument, especially the kind that says opponents are stupid.

Your third paragraph I’ve found to be particularly true Hetty58 - people surround themselves with those who agree with them and distance themselves from t’others.

They don’t go anywhere new/different to experience different things etc because they know what they like and like what they know.

I’ve learned so much more since I left my little village in north Wales and met so many people across the world, many still friends, and experienced different cultures. Travel does add to climate problems but definitely broadens the mind.

I'd say a strong resistance even to having anyone suggest that it is OK to change your mind shows a rigidity of thought.

Every little bit of evidence that comes our way should be feeding into our minds and possibly changing our perception of a problem or a situation - and the source of that evidence and the reputation of the supplier of it should influence how much weight to give it. Rejecting genuine evidence in favour of a preconceived "right" answer can lead to flawed decisions.

That can be personal (believing that "It is because he loves me so much" when a partner is violent over an imagined infidelity) or political (believing that all __s are __s. Fill in gaps as applicable) or superstitious ("If I walk under a ladder, I will have bad luck")

I think I know what you're getting at Anja! For example re Justin Trudeau blacking-up, morris dancers etc ..... the same old is trotted out time and time again.

I have a much-loved golliwog - I'm not racist
I loved the black and white minstrels - everyone's so PC these day

Wouldn't it be a good idea sometimes for us to re-visit our previous beliefs and see things in a new light, and think well yes it might be insulting to others if you blacken your face into a racial caricature, and a shop selling golliwogs belongs in the past.

Unfortunately, I think the events of the past three years have entrenched our attitudes - older people in particular are guilty of this.

I've also changed my mind about compulsory voting. It was an Aussie who changed my mind about that (it's compulsory there) and that was quite a recent mind-change (in the last year). It does help if the mind changer is a pleasant person. If you think someone is a bit of a bully, they're unlikely to shift one's opinion.

Riverwalk
A neighbour of West-Indian heritage was really offended by a shop in Wales (Llandudno, I think) that sold nothing but golliwogs and similarly-themed stuff (framed pictires, cushions etc). The shop-owner (surprise, surprise) called her something racist under her breath (but audible enough) when she walked in, open-mouthed with incredulity. I hope that shop went bust, frankly.
I'm not going to change my views on racism. There is no cogent argument to defend it.