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Unman Khan and some light on the issue

(114 Posts)
Whitewavemark2 Mon 02-Dec-19 08:48:43

After Johnson yesterday sought to gain political capital on the death if British citizens, I thought it would be useful to outline the whole issue in detail, with the help of an excellent Guardian article.

Why did Usman Khan go to jail?

Convicted in 2012. Case involving al-Qaida inspired groups intent on setting up a terrorist camp in Pakistan and carry out attacks in Kashmir.

Khan pleaded guilty.

Sentence

Justice Wilkie considered Khan enough of a long term risk to the public for him to receive an indeterminate sentence rather than a fixed term. Indeterminate means that he could not be released without parole board approval.

Appeal

Successful.
Leveson concluded that khan terror plans largely related to overseas and therefor not a substantial risk to the public. Khan received 16 years. Release after 8.

The Law
The type of sentence Khan received was an extended sentence for public protection, introduced by Labour in April 2005, alongside the IPP sentence.
Both types of sentence required that a parole board assessment be made before release.
In 2008 Labour changed the law to ease pressure on the soaring prisoner numbers. This required that only that extended sentences the requirement for parole oversight was removed.
Khan became automatically eligible for release midway through his term.
Rules for terrorism sentencing was changed by the Conservatives in 2015 as the Islamic state grew. All terrorist prisoners now have to apply for parole.

Is Johnson right in blaming labour?

Conclusion - no

It is true that Labour”s 2008 law change created the type of sentence that allowed automatic release, but Labour also created a viable alternative, in the indeterminate sentence, which required parole board oversight.

The Tory manifesto does say “we will introduce thought sentencing for the worst offenders and dnd automatic halfway release from prison for serious crimes” but is has nothing specific on terror offences.

Johnson assertion that terrorists spend 14 years in prison is new.

Is anyone to blame

Difficult.

Labour gave the judges a choice
An indeterminate sentence which required parole oversight
Or
A determinate sentence which did not.

Justice Wilkie chose the first, the court of appeal overturned his decision.

The Law changes by the Tories have simply reduced the discretion available to the judges in terror cases.

Whitewavemark2 Mon 02-Dec-19 08:59:50

Sorry about the typos but dashing this off before getting the porridge ?

Urmstongran Mon 02-Dec-19 09:31:03

Bottom line = can we ever trust a radicalised terrorist?

No, in my opinion.

Sorry for the short post but it sums up my view.

Gonegirl Mon 02-Dec-19 09:41:57

Can't believe this event is being used for posters' own personal electioneering.

Too soon.

JenniferEccles Mon 02-Dec-19 09:46:32

I wish he could be deported but unfortunately as he was born here he is deemed British.

In a way I feel it’s worse.

His parents were given permission to settle here so he grew up with everything this country has to offer yet he obviously loathes us and this is how he repaid a country which gave him so much.

Would anyone else be in favour of the death penalty for terrorism?

eazybee Mon 02-Dec-19 09:50:40

Can't believe this event is being used for posters' own personal electioneering.
I can.

The people who supported and assisted this murderer in every way they could think of paid for it with their lives.

Gonegirl Mon 02-Dec-19 09:51:15

No. The death penalty would be coming down to their level. Life imprisonment. And it being just that - life.

Gonegirl Mon 02-Dec-19 09:52:17

I think it's fine to discuss it, but not use it for electioneering.

EllanVannin Mon 02-Dec-19 09:52:31

It strikes me than none of them involved in the justice system know what they're doing.
In light of past atrocities in this country wouldn't you think these so-called learned people would have learnt their lessons ?

The jails are full of these terrorists/extremists ! In 2016, 84% were convicted of terrorism or terror-related crimes.

Gonegirl Mon 02-Dec-19 09:53:28

Yes. We have lost two very special young people. We can't afford to do that.

Gonegirl Mon 02-Dec-19 09:53:51

(that was to eazybee)

MaizieD Mon 02-Dec-19 09:54:11

I wish he could be deported but unfortunately as he was born here he is deemed British.

You do realise he's dead, don't you, JE. Makes it a bit difficult to deport him.

Anniebach Mon 02-Dec-19 09:58:47

The father of the young man murdered asked his sons death not be uses for politics

Whitewavemark2 Mon 02-Dec-19 10:03:00

I think the whole issue surrounding indeterminate and fixed term sentencing needs to be revisited as it seems that we have fallen foul of UCHR law in as much as those held under such proceedings as indeterminate sentencing have no ability to rehabilitate and thus be ready for release.

Sensible law making but most importantly sufficient resources and planning are the big issue here I feel.

crystaltipps Mon 02-Dec-19 10:10:02

Part of the reason for early releases has been the slashing of the prison and probation services by privatisation in a bid to save money. Many experienced prison and probation officers let go
as too expensive. Interesting to note that one ( or two?) of those who tackled the terrorist were convicted criminals being helped by the rehabilitation programme. Those who demand the death sentence should realise that it wouldn’t deter a determined terrorist - they often end up being shot by police anyway as in this case.

Gonegirl Mon 02-Dec-19 10:10:11

I don't understand this 'you serve only half' thing at all. Why?!
Doesn't it make a mockery of sentencing.

EllanVannin Mon 02-Dec-19 10:11:02

74 terrorists had been released from jail earlier------and now, police are looking for them back to their cells ! I totally give up.

Anniebach Mon 02-Dec-19 10:12:37

O/P - Usman Khan

Usman Khan murdered Saskia Jones and Jack Merrit

Jack Merrit’s father asked his sons death not be used for
politics .

EllanVannin Mon 02-Dec-19 10:12:38

JenniferEccles, yes-----death to terrorists.

TerriBull Mon 02-Dec-19 10:16:58

Slightly off subject, what bothers me is Jeremy Corbyn appears to oppose "shoot to kill" I don't know how he feels the scenario that unfolded on Friday should have been dealt with. It's certainly an opinion that is out of kilter with how most people feel. For example, on MN one poster mooted her feelings which were "there were two murderers at the scene, Khan and the policeman that shot him dead" needless to say that poster was shot down in flames from all the others, very much a lone voice. It must be incredibly hard to take the split second decision to take a life, but at the time it cannot be known how many more innocent lives could be taken. I believe there were 8 or 9 on the previous London Bridge atrocitiy.

EllanVannin Mon 02-Dec-19 10:17:42

Rehabilitation doesn't work ! It's like telling an alcoholic to stop drinking.

EllanVannin Mon 02-Dec-19 10:21:06

TerriBull it's either them or you !

The person to blame for all this is Blair ! Saddam shouldn't have been hunted down, it was nothing to do with this country.

Gonegirl Mon 02-Dec-19 10:23:41

I can't help wondering if those men that fought with him would have done so if they had realised he had a suicide vest on, albeit a fake one. But that's just mean.

Gonegirl Mon 02-Dec-19 10:24:12

I mustn't take away from their heroism.

GrannyGravy13 Mon 02-Dec-19 10:26:44

Gonegirl I think they did know, which is why they restrained him, absolute heroes.