Shamina Begum

I can't get it out of my mind that she was a child, the same age as my GD when she is was radicalized.

She needs to come home to face justice. All very sad. What a horrific end to an " adventure". Silly girl. We must show some compassion imo.

My husband totally disagrees of course.

She was a child when she was radicalised.She is under the UN description a child soldier. We need to face up to our responsibilities and deal properly with her. If she was from a white Christian family does anyone really think she would have been treated in such a way?
Definition of a child soldier
Any girl or boy below the age of 18 who is recruited or used by an armed force or armed group, in any capacity.

A child soldier is not just someone who is involved in fighting. They can also be those in other roles such as cooks, porters, messengers, human shields, spies, suicide bombers or those used for sexual exploitation. It includes children recruited and trained for military purposes, but not used in war.

I’m sure many regret decisions made at age 15 years.
As a civilised society we should show compassion and give her a chance to redeem herself and live a better life.
It is also in our interest as a country not to reject her and thereby fuel bitterness perhaps with far worse consequences.

I agree with you both. She should be brought home and dealt with in the UK, especially as she was just a child when she went. I’m sure she thought she was right and knew what she was doing when she went but she wasn’t and didn’t. Who knows what she believes now but she should have to explain herself here in court.
All countries should be taking back their citizens to face justice imo.

I agree. She should come back. I agree with LauraNorder

I believe the court decision is right. She represents a threat to the people of this country.

We won’t know if she represents a threat if we don’t hear her story, though. If she has to stay where she is there will always be the risk that she will be overheard if she says anything against Islamic State, and she could be in danger.

I think that at 15 she was far too young to be held responsible for stupid decisions and made to pay for the rest of her life. Before someone says that the age of responsibility is 10 in the UK, I think that that is a cruel and inexplicable law which is out of place in the 21st century.

I don't see the problem, she wanted to live out there and now she is

There is a word that is missing in that judgement and it is compassion.

A child was groomed and radicalised at the most vulnerable time in her life.

She was witness to the most barbaric and evil acts.

She has seen two of her babies buried.

That young woman should be brought home to be subjected to what one would hope to be a sensible and compassionate decision over her future and to be near her family.

She is not being allowed back to plead her case for having her citizenship reinstated - why does she need to return to UK to do that, why can't it be done via the internet (as many court cases have been over the past year). If she returns, and her bid fails, it will be impossible to deport her.

It must be remembered ISIS instructed its followers to return to their home countries to continue the fight. The safety of UK citizens must come first.

I think there is a lot we don’t know.

www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjRieui1YnvAhVMUhUIHUqxBIAQFjABegQIARAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.supremecourt.uk%2Fcases%2Fdocs%2Fuksc-2020-0156-press-summary.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2D4H4P0Rk4I3IR8bBkCaVW

The power that allows the government to kick you out without a fair and transparent trial sets a very dangerous precedent.

Compassion eh? Easy to say that when none of your family were blown to bits by a bomb.

Begum gave an interview to the BBC. She said of the 22 people killed in the horrific Manchester concert bombing -

“Shamima Begum has given an interview to the BBC.

Asked about the Manchester terror attack, she told the broadcaster in an interview aired today: "I do feel that it's wrong that innocent people did get killed.

"It's one thing to kill a soldier that is fighting you; it's self-defence, but to kill women and children..."

Begum said it was "just people like the women and children in Baghuz that are being killed right now unjustly, the bombings.

"So It's a two-way thing really. Because women and children are being killed in Islamic State right now, and it's a kind of retaliation... their justification was it's retaliation so I thought 'OK, that is a fair justification."

No compassion from me. She’s a traitor.

I have just posted on the other thread about this and this thread does seem a lot kinder. Just finished a book called Guest House for Young Widows among the women of ISIS. It makes interesting reading as to the reasons why young women joined ISIS . Shamina was groomed and then let down by the authorities who knew she was at risk. They interviewed her 3 or 4 times at school but nobody told her parents, she was just given a letter to take home to them (cost cutting) which she never did. I think that compassion is missing from her case and we should at least allow her back to appeal. We are acting in a disgraceful way.

There are vast differences in maturity of 15 year old girls.
Let’s assume she was at the most immature and naive end of that spectrum. She was influenced to embark on a ‘romantic’ adventure, no parental control, becoming a warrior, travelling with friends.
On arrival she met and fell in love with a warrior, had a husband, had sex, how exciting and grown up.
Got pregnant, witnessed violence and death at first hand, continually being told that the cause was noble, the west was rotten, became hardened to the point of not feeling any emotion.
Her life has been horrendous. She may be insane, she may be wicked, she may be a young naive girl and a victim of circumstance.
As a generous and compassionate society should we not, at the very least, try to find out the root cause of her decisions.
I am 71 years old and can still have my views changed by experience and education. Maybe this young woman could be de-radicalised. Maybe we can learn from her experience so that we can protect other young impressionable girls from travelling the same road.
Surely we have to try.

Urmstongran

Compassion eh? Easy to say that when none of your family were blown to bits by a bomb.

Begum gave an interview to the BBC. She said of the 22 people killed in the horrific Manchester concert bombing -

“Shamima Begum has given an interview to the BBC.

Asked about the Manchester terror attack, she told the broadcaster in an interview aired today: "I do feel that it's wrong that innocent people did get killed.

"It's one thing to kill a soldier that is fighting you; it's self-defence, but to kill women and children..."

Begum said it was "just people like the women and children in Baghuz that are being killed right now unjustly, the bombings.

"So It's a two-way thing really. Because women and children are being killed in Islamic State right now, and it's a kind of retaliation... their justification was it's retaliation so I thought 'OK, that is a fair justification."

No compassion from me. She’s a traitor.

So are you saying you don't care about the women and children killed in other places like Baghuz Urmstongran? Or was she in fact just trying to understand the whole conflict and retaliation process and draw attention to the awful mess that is the Middle East?
I would imagine she has great difficulty in logical thinkng and speaking. She is most likely to be suffering from PTSD as many of the traumatic experiences she underwent happened when she was an adolescent.
During times of trauma, fight or flight responses are rarely options for children, as they are often physi- cally unable to defend themselves or escape. The most readily accessible response to the pain of trauma may be to activate dissociative mechanisms, involving dis- engagement from the external world. Biological defense mechanisms are activated by the central nervous system, such as depersonalization, derealization, numbing, and in extreme cases, catatonia and ‘tonic immobility’ (Perry & Pollard, 1998). The individual cascade of defense mechanisms that a survivor has gone through during the traumatic event can replay itself whenever the fear network, which has evolved peritraumatically, is activated again by internal or external trigger

Thanks for your insight re trauma Trisher. I didn’t have the particular knowledge or wording but this is what I was trying to convey.

Of course she should come back I don’t understand the mind set of those that say she shouldn’t she is our problem
great posts Trisher and laurandorder
A child of 15 is barely able to think as an adult she was a child and was radicalised at a very young age she is almost certainly suffering mental health issues she has lost three babies lived in awful conditions At 15 she thought she knew it all now she knows she knew nothing she will be numb maybe ill no one will know her mental health state
She must be brought here and helped
A world without compassion is no world

This is a wide and complex issue and many are caught up in it. Whatever decisions are made about this young woman carry implications far beyond her well-being.
1. There are many others like her and her treatment will set potentially dangerous precedents for others wanting to return to the UK, some of whom may well wish us harm.
2. She was a minor at the time she left. Is she to be treated by the law as a minor or an adult?
3. As a previous contributor raised, is she to be treated as a child soldier with all the protection that offers?
4. Does her online radicalisation offer her the same understanding as children who are 'groomed' online by paedophiles?
5. Her initial statements at the time of her discovery were made when she was heavily pregnant and this may offer some mitigation under UK law
6. She is married to a foreign national - Dutch I think. Does an offer of repatriation to her entitle him to any rights?
7. Her safety is already compromised by radical islamists who regard her as a traitor for wanting to return to the UK. If she were to be repatriated that danger would extend to her family and perhaps to others.
8. Don't forget that there are UK citizens who have lost loved ones in terrorist attacks and who might welcome the chance to harm her.
9. Who would handle and pay for her security?
There is no simple or speedy solution to this problem nor is her case clear cut. Remember, she wasn't discovered whilst fleeing from ISIS. She was discovered after the terrorists were being defeated. If ISIS had still been viable she would still have been there - from choice.
We have to stop the process of trial by media. It is an attractive proposition for a newspaper to champion the case of someone they were first to discover. The law cannot be short-circuited for them to appear as noble champions. It must be allowed first to work out a viable process for a new and dangerous situation and then it must be allowed, impartially, to implement it - for everyone's sakes. Revoking her citizenship is a holding measure (possibly temporary) whilst this happens.

It is very interesting to see the difference in tone between this thread and the one in "chat".

The decision as to whether or not to re instate her citizenship hasn't happened been made. The Supreme Court has ruled that she may not return to defend her case in person.

I agree with Oldwoman in that if she loses her case it may be impossible to deport her so the court's decision IMO is the correct one.

It's extremely unlikely IMO that she would have ever wanted to return if ISIS hadn't been defeated and she wasn't stuck in a refugee camp.

Shamina Begum has dual citizenship, let her go the Bangladesh.

She betrayed our country, and cannot be trusted.

I think that's the nature of internet posting I lovecheese, the first posts on any subject tend to set the tone of the thread.

If she wasn't being interviewed and sensationalised in the media I doubt any of us would know who she was.