We are watching the demise of the NHS with our eyes wide open.

And yet many warned that this was exactly what would happen under the present government. You are spot on - it is a very deliberate policy.

Exactly. One of the core Labour messages in the last election.

And yet many of those complaining about the lack of accessibility of NHS healthcare actually voted Tory. Did they actually believe the lies that the Tories wouldn't get rid of the NHS? It is BASIC belief of that party that healthcare should be paid for by the user.

I'll lay you any money that this thread is ignored by our tory voters or called 'government bashing'. ?

All great, if you have private health insurance. But most of us can't afford it.

I'm with a great doc at the moment. But I no longer live in his catchment. I dread what is going to happen when he eventually finds out. The GP in my local area is awful. Run into the ground. It terrifies me.

It takes a particular type of government that during a pandemic, it manages to make the doctors their enemy.

Last week another of my friends threw the towel in because the workload was too much and no job satisfaction, maternity services are no better, closing frequently and always understaffed. I don’t see how privatization is going to change anything, it’s more nurses needed and a lot more cash.

The fact remains most GPs work part time. Huge capacity that we paid to train not being used.

And the Conservatives are still ahead in the polls.

What ever is wrong with us?

Urmstongran

The fact remains most GPs work part time. Huge capacity that we paid to train not being used.

Why do you think that is Urmstongran?

What I have heard is that a doctor working part time is one working a forty hour week.

Urmstongran

The fact remains most GPs work part time. Huge capacity that we paid to train not being used.

That is not the doctors fault. That is like blaming a shortage of lorry drivers on the lorry drivers.

Or a shortage of care workers on the care workers

Or shortage of vets on the vets

Or shortage of butchers onto the butchers..

Decisions made by this government has caused much of these issues.

In the NHS case it is lack of funding.

In my opinion it is because they are so well paid most decide they can afford to work 6 sessions a week for circa £50,000. Two of my friends (both female) do this.

On the other hand, nothing is that straightforward is it?

We definitely don’t have enough GPs and our population has been under recorded (EU residents for example) over the years. There is a lot of admin work (tick boxing) to comply with their payments..

We pay nowhere near as much tax as in say Germany. They fund healthcare so differently to us. Our system isn’t working. Tony Blair rolled out Agenda for Change years ago and GPs were huge beneficiaries of that largesse.

I respectfully disagree WWmk2.
Chucking ever increasing money at the NHS without tackling the underlying problems simply papers over the cracks. Till the next ‘crisis’.

GP Practices have been underfunded for years. We have multiple threads on Gransnet where posters are complaining about a lack of ability to see their GP. As the mother of a GP who is married to a GP (both now working in New Zealand) I understand how frustrating it is for both the patients and the GPs. I have defended our GPs in the UK and tried to explain multiple times that GPs are not hiding behind closed doors, nor scared of Covid (they do still see patients face to face, they wear PPE) nor being paid too much (my GP daughter took a cut in pay thanks to government practice) nor avoiding patients, and so on. It’s just as frustrating and difficult for GPs as it is for the patients. Funding has been restricted for years in GP Practices and although we were promised more GPs, there are now actually fewer than when this government came to power some ten years ago. If only people understood how much funding has been restricted and how many GPs have been lost (retirement, emigration, and change of specialisation) and coupled with a growing population it has created a crisis in general practice. GPs want to deliver a good service but are hampered by government policy. I wonder how people know that GPs have been instructed to do as many consultations as possible by telephone because more patients can be ‘seen’ when doing telephone consultations. GPs want to provide a good service and are doing their best under very difficult circumstances.

I wonder how people know that GPs have been instructed to do as many consultations as possible by telephone because more patients can be ‘seen’ when doing telephone consultations

I read maddyone that GPs were being given extra funding to do this. Which seems shocking.

Urmstongran

I respectfully disagree WWmk2.
Chucking ever increasing money at the NHS without tackling the underlying problems simply papers over the cracks. Till the next ‘crisis’.

Do you ever think about what you are saying, Ug?

The NHS is on its knees because it is seriously underfunded.

It is short of doctors, nurses and GPs. Employing them, (and your Best Beloved promised squillions of extra nurses for the NHS, did he not?) will cost money.' Money that is available if the political will is there. The truth is that the political will isn't there.

And demonising GPs (who, like all health service professionals, have worked all through the pandemic under very difficult circumstances) as the Daily Mail and our so called 'Health' Minister are doing, is utterly despicable.

More money ... in ITSELF is not the answer I fear MaizieD.
And I’ve already agreed this country doesn’t have enough GP provision.

However.

I believe, Covid was just the moment GPs were waiting for. Ever since Tony Blair decided to change the GP contract, not only reverting back to what had been tried before, but also paying more money and removing the need to see patients on Saturdays and Out of Hours, GPs have had it pretty good, in that sense. What never changed was the need to reform the way General Practice operates within the NHS pantheon. GPs should have been fully absorbed structurally and financially into the NHS. Instead they continue to operate under an archaic and inefficient system that is not fit for purpose.

You will hear, as I did yesterday on Radio 4, Today, that their waiting rooms are too small to have as many patients in as they would like. Result, less ability to see "face to face". What they don't tell you is the Practice building, in many cases, has been purchased by them and, through a convoluted set of rules unique to GPs, is rented back to the Health authority. It belongs to them, not to us; it is a business asset. That being so, a business would usually, if it outgrows its premises, invest in larger premises. This they do not do and would more likely expect the taxpayer to fund any such move. GPs are also paid for staffing costs to 80% plus and for just about anything they do outside normal consultation, additional money is paid. For example, per prescription, for health initiatives, for the flu campaign, clinics etc. The Practice is also paid a nominal sum for every patient on the Practice list, even if they never see a GP in their lifetime. Often, some have died or moved away. Some are expats who retain their Practice registration for treatment on visits home They can also arrange their working patterns within a practice to allow for private work to be undertaken, boosting the Practice income. Out of hours work, previously part of the job can now be done to boost personal income. Not to bad a deal from the taxpayer I think.

The other side of the coin? Consultation times per patient are not workable if you are to get what we all pay for, and GPs would, I'm sure, like to deliver. There is no penalty for people who do not attend appointments (DNAs) effectively, tax payers money spent on nothing. These figures are very high and frustrating for GPs. Chronically ill patients (Asthma, Diabetes, etc) take up large amounts of GP time too for what is often just continuation of treatment.

So GPs now see an opportunity for reset, I believe, and perhaps rightly so. But they must also consider that we, the taxpayer, who pay them well, would also like to see a reset that improves quality and efficiency of service. For that to happen, GPs must also be prepared to change.

Urmstongran this advice came down in a government directive pre Covid, so absolutely nothing to do with the money announced this week. Obviously during Covid many more consultations took place over the phone or by video link. During Covid GPs did see patients face to face if necessary. They wore PPE whilst they saw patients face to face. As my daughter actually said to me ‘I can’t do a vaginal examination by phone.’ Obviously wherever possible GPs did not bring patients into the surgery because it was safer for the patients and safer for the surgery staff, including the GPs. My two both got Covid anyway.
Frankly I don’t know why giving GP Practices extra money to help with seeing more patients face to face is shocking. GP Practices have been underfunded for years! However exactly how government thinks that extra money will help with more face to face appointments I do not have a clue. More face to face appointments requires more doctors. So where are all these extra doctors? I’d love to know the answer to that. We have fewer GPs now than we did pre Covid.

I’m afraid posters saying Covid was just the excuse GPs were waiting for is unbelievable and displays a total lack of any understanding of the problem. NOT ENOUGH GPs! Is that loud enough? NOT ENOUGH FUNDING! Is that too difficult for posters to understand?

Good post Maizie.

Urmstongran are you actually suggesting that GPs should see patients all week and then on Saturdays and through the evening? When do they see their families then? Aren’t GPs allowed time off?
We have a very good out of hours service in the UK. It’s not perfect, but it works.

Urmstongran

^I wonder how people know that GPs have been instructed to do as many consultations as possible by telephone because more patients can be ‘seen’ when doing telephone consultations^

I read maddyone that GPs were being given extra funding to do this. Which seems shocking.

No maddyone you e got the wrong end of the stick.

GPs are being offered more money to do more telephone consultations. That’s what I read anyway. And filters into your statement above.

I don’t expect GPs to work 7 or even 6 days a week maddyone but full time (ie 5 days or 10 sessions) would be good.

And as I said to MaizieD upthread, I AGREE we don’t have enough GPs.

The reasons for this though are myriad.