Finland & Sweden have formally applied to join NATO this morning.

That’s my fear too.

No, I think it sends a strong message to Putin that ultimately he won’t win - and if I lived in Finland or Sweden I’d want to be in NATO too.

Finland was historically part of Russia. They have been neutral for years and have avoided aligning themselves with anyone. They have an 800 mile long border with Russia. Putin has form now for invading countries he'd like to have back in the USSR. If I was Finnish, if be joining NATO too, and if Putin complains, well he knows who to blame.

Anyway, Turkey may well block it.

When neutral countries start forming alliances that could be interpreted as a threatening act, we are on a slippery slope.

It sends a shiver down my spine, especially at this sensitive moment. We know Putin is a loony and will stop at nothing. His response will be to say "I told you so" and use it as justification for his aggression in Ukraine.

I think the slippery slope started when Putin invaded Ukraine.

We have close friends in Sweden, and they are extremely jittery

What do they think about NATO membership GG13?

Putin has nobody to blame but himself he started all this by invading Ukraine. What gives him the right to tell other countries what they can or cannot do.
Things are really not going the way he planned and that is probably when he is the most dangerous. But bullies cannot win.
He really cannot be that stupid he has been threatening nuclear responses can he not even imagine what would happen if he even tried.

Sweden and Finland are vulnerable now Putin has invaded Ukraine so it's understandable that they want to be protected by NATO.
This was not what Putin was expecting as he feels threatened by NATO. Nobody can know how he will respond if he feels that Russia is vulnerable.

It's a catch 22 situation with Finland and Sweden isn't it. I can understand why they want to ally themselves with NATO but who knows how Putin will view it. He won't back down now. As volver said Turkey may well block them as all countries have to agree.

We've been on a slippery slope with Putin for a very long time. Our biggest mistake was to stand by and let him take Crimea etc back in 2014. He saw our weak actions and lack of unity as an opportunity to further his ambition. I'm very relieved that Finland and Sweden want to join NATO, it gives Putin a strong signal of unity. If he intends to escalate the war further, he will do it regardless. It also sends a strong message to China.

GrannyGravy13

We have close friends in Sweden, and they are extremely jittery

I was talking to a Finnish friend about this and, while nervous, she fully supports it and thinks the majority of her compatriots feel the same way.

Her take is that SE/FI have aligned so much with NATO that the only thing missing is Article 5. And while agreeing that Article 5 is a big deal, she thinks that Putin will make noises but not see it in the same way as UA potentially joining.

But, as she says herself, predicting Putin is a very inexact science. But doing nothing is a much a choice as doing something.

Petera

GrannyGravy13

We have close friends in Sweden, and they are extremely jittery

I was talking to a Finnish friend about this and, while nervous, she fully supports it and thinks the majority of her compatriots feel the same way.

Her take is that SE/FI have aligned so much with NATO that the only thing missing is Article 5. And while agreeing that Article 5 is a big deal, she thinks that Putin will make noises but not see it in the same way as UA potentially joining.

But, as she says herself, predicting Putin is a very inexact science. But doing nothing is a much a choice as doing something.

..and if I can make a prediction, the TR objection will blow over.

But as has been said many times “Never make predictions, especially about the future.”

I think NATO alliances are President Putin’s bete noir.

The old guard of Russia have been looking to resurrect the USSR for decades, and that he will view this as justification for his actions in Ukraine.

I was watching a report on this last week and they said a minority of Finnish people have always wanted to join NATO but a majority not and there had been a massive swing in support to join NATO, I think 75% supported it at the beginning of the month up from 25%!

Turkey have apparently blocked it

Petera

GrannyGravy13

We have close friends in Sweden, and they are extremely jittery

I was talking to a Finnish friend about this and, while nervous, she fully supports it and thinks the majority of her compatriots feel the same way.

Her take is that SE/FI have aligned so much with NATO that the only thing missing is Article 5. And while agreeing that Article 5 is a big deal, she thinks that Putin will make noises but not see it in the same way as UA potentially joining.

But, as she says herself, predicting Putin is a very inexact science. But doing nothing is a much a choice as doing something.

They haven’t said that they do not support the application, just that they are concerned.

Just to push this a bit further, as far as I'm aware RU has never complained about Norway's membership of NATO and it is Norway that has a border with Russia, not Sweden.

But also the future NATO/EU relations will be more interesting, it's now only Austria, Ireland, Malta and Cyprus who are in the EU but not in NATO.

Russia's complaints about NATO expanding are a pretext, as I'm sure we all know. If Sweden and Finland eventually join, then I'm sure Putin will use that to convince the Russian people that the West are out to get them. But perhaps the Russian people will understand that Sweden hasn't been in a war for 2 centuries, so for them to apply to join NATO is a big deal and was by no means a direction of travel they were bound to take. And they only decided to apply after their glorious leader decided to invade a neutral country.

volver I hope you are correct, but as we all know unbiased/neutral news and information is unavailable for the majority of Russian citizens.

Putin’s invasion of Ukraine and his threats to countries that consider joining NATO make Finland feel joining is essential.

Placating him and suggesting Finland and Sweden shouldn’t join because it will be seen asa threat to Russia reminds me of the advice to victims of domestic abuse or rape. They’re often told, Don’t wind him up, don’t wear provocative clothing,keep quiet, comply with his demands otherwise he might lose his temper

volver

Finland was historically part of Russia. They have been neutral for years and have avoided aligning themselves with anyone. They have an 800 mile long border with Russia. Putin has form now for invading countries he'd like to have back in the USSR. If I was Finnish, if be joining NATO too, and if Putin complains, well he knows who to blame.

Anyway, Turkey may well block it.

From what I've been reading over the course of the Ukraine invasion I doubt that Putin has any thoughts of invading Finland in the near future. His forces are stretched in Ukraine, he is using young and poorly trained conscripts mainly as cannon fodder and to bulk up the numbers on the ground. It is suspected that he daren't call for mobilisation of his remaining army because firstly he hasn't actually declared war (it's still a 'special operation' and secondly, mobilised troops would have to concentrate through Moscow and he may fear an attempt a t a military coup as the army can't be particularly pleased with him at the moment.

He must be painfully aware of just what a paper tiger his army has turned out to be...

Additionally his 'conventional' weaponry is old and poorly maintained as a result of corruption at many levels. There is a question over his ability to increase weapons production because sanctions are depriving him of western made components which he needs. Is he being supplied from elsewhere,? It doesn't look likely. China is standing back from him and where else could he turn?

He is old (ish), and by many accounts, probably terminally ill. He doesn't have much time to prepare to be fighting in more than one European theatre.

He has apparently affected indifference to Sweden and Finland's plans to join NATO.

So I don't think they are in any particular danger of being invaded. OTOH it sends a 'Don't even try' message...

Nor do I think we're on the verge of WW3 (not relevant to the quoted post I know. Just my opinion)

Finland has been an independent country for over a hundred years and having been attacked by Russia during that time, is very aware of the ongoing threat.

Finland has a large military force and a well trained territorial force. All public buildings and many homes are built with cellars for use as bomb shelters.

Russia has promised to respect Finland's neutrality, which meant that Finland had no need to join NATO, until Putin broke his promise to respect Ukraine's neutrality .

Putin only understands strength. I don’t understand why I’m not more afraid of the current situation. I guess it’s too awful to comprehend fully.

Iam64

Putin’s invasion of Ukraine and his threats to countries that consider joining NATO make Finland feel joining is essential.

Placating him and suggesting Finland and Sweden shouldn’t join because it will be seen asa threat to Russia reminds me of the advice to victims of domestic abuse or rape. They’re often told, Don’t wind him up, don’t wear provocative clothing,keep quiet, comply with his demands otherwise he might lose his temper

Absolutely Iam64. I’m not surprised that Finland and Sweden feel that they should now join NATO.