Gransnet forums

News & politics

Speaking the truth about brexit

(542 Posts)
varian Sat 04-Jun-22 19:39:18

Sir Anthony Gormley whose mother was German has just applied to become a German citizen and of course an EU citizen. He tells the truth about brexit. It is time more public figures told the truth about this self afflicted disaster.

www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

M0nica Sat 04-Jun-22 19:54:24

Whose truth are you talking about? Truth unfortunately is generally relative.

varian Sat 04-Jun-22 20:15:12

It is hard to imagine anyone who has any grasp of the changes caused by brexit? honestly believing that brexit was ever a good idea

M0nica Sat 04-Jun-22 20:20:50

There are many people who thought brexit was a good thing and still do. Their views may be different from yours or mine but then what they expected to happen after Brexit were probaby different as well and they may be happy with the way things have gone.

Callistemon21 Sat 04-Jun-22 20:26:14

M0nica

Whose truth are you talking about? Truth unfortunately is generally relative.

He's a sculptor

So his views are pertinent to him of course.
His reasons for voting remain may be different to my views for voting remain.
His views would not have influenced me.

varian Sat 04-Jun-22 20:28:37

The office of Budget Responsibility have reviewed the effects of brexit over the last two years.

www.investmentmonitor.ai/analysis/two-years-brexit-uk-eu

Callistemon21 Sat 04-Jun-22 20:30:09

But I don't understand what Anthony Gormley has to do with anything.

M0nica Sat 04-Jun-22 20:48:46

Yes, I know who Anthony Gormley is. I was just commenting on varian's belief that all truth rests with the remainers and that no brexiteer can reasonably gain say them. Essentially that is exactly what Brexiteers think as well. What is the 'truth' depends on what direction you are coming from.

Callistemon21 Sat 04-Jun-22 20:52:56

M0nica

Yes, I know who Anthony Gormley is. I was just commenting on varian's belief that all truth rests with the remainers and that no brexiteer can reasonably gain say them. Essentially that is exactly what Brexiteers think as well. What is the 'truth' depends on what direction you are coming from.

Sorry, I was responding to varian and agreeing with you.

Whose truth are you talking about? Truth unfortunately is generally relative.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

M0nica Sat 04-Jun-22 21:13:30

my apologies Callistomen21

DaisyAnne Sat 04-Jun-22 21:42:33

M0nica

Whose truth are you talking about? Truth unfortunately is generally relative.

Bad, incoherent argument M0nica. Why do so many people use logical fallacies to try and make a point?

How about thinking about whether that can be absolutely true.

M0nica Sun 05-Jun-22 09:24:37

In politics, each party has the policies that it believes in implicitly and cannot believe that their arguments based on their absolute truth of the situation can not be blindingly clear to anyone who reads them.

These truths are different depending on which side of the political divide you stand.

This is a political thread and I talk of the ambiguity of competing truths within that context.

MaizieD Sun 05-Jun-22 09:37:27

Here is a Brexit truth for the Wine Importer, Daniel Lambert.

He has been posting regularly ever since Johnson 'got brexit done' He's now reporting on what 18 months of Brexit has done for his business.

Start

We are now 18 months into Brexit and after huge disruption to my business I can finally get a real picture, in financial terms, of just what a bad move Brexit it has been for my company and every other importer.
Pre-Brexit, shipping goods was relatively straightforward from the EU. Order, collection and delivery within 7-10 days was the norm from every part of the EU, which accounts for 66.6% of all wine consumed in the U.K.
The average cost was £170-£190 per single pallet for the logistics and this pallet could be mixed with multiple suppliers (not anymore) including EU movement documents. These were the only costs. So in other words easy and cheap to trade.
Now let’s contrast and move to where we are today by each EU country. France is by far my biggest region for importation. On average my lead time from order to delivery has moved from 10 days to 26 days. This makes a big difference over 250 SKU’s.
The fastest lead times today are with Spain which now regularly takes 14-21 days, Portugal slightly longer, Germany and Austria is 28-35 days, and the worst is Italy which has taken 45-70 days over the last three shipments.
Costs too have changed dramatically. The fixed logistics charge of £180 is a distant memory! The single pallet rate from France is now £280, for Spain it’s £270, Germany £310, Austria £340, & Italy it’s £340. I should add these are the best rate single pallet rates we have found.
Now in addition to this we have the paperwork fees and this is really where things have got expensive. These costs are charged by brokers working along side hauliers create the clearance docs on the EU side and the U.K.
The paperwork costs vary depending on the haulier used, as some have their own in house customs department and others out source the work. The cheapest I have seen is £25 per export and import document and the most expensive is £150.
Once again the systems required on both sides of the channel to create these documents is free to use once your registered to use them, so you do need to ask why are these fees so high?
My company doesn’t pay the U.K. side as we have access to the required systems. But this has actually made it more difficult in some cases to use the cheapest logistics companies as they did not want us to do our own U.K. documents. Profiteering maybe?
So to the raw numbers per single pallet shipped inc paperwork declarations. France is now £165 more expensive, Spain £155, Italy £180, Germany and Austria £150. There would be an additional £65 from all EU countries if I didn’t do the U.K. docs.
A pallet of wine holds an average of 672 bottles, the most is 840 for light weight bottles and 480 for Sparkling wine. So the average increase per bottle just for logistics since Brexit is 25p. I have not inc fuel surcharges which is a different issue.
You then have the additional staffing which in our case has been a full time member of staff only working in Brexit related paperwork 39 hours a week. That’s a further 13p per bottle on every one we ship.
We have then needed to hold more stock due to the unreliable lead times which means more capital is locked up in stock. I still don’t have a firm figure for this but my best estimate is a further 20p a bottle. Remember this is just to stand still and offer our regular service.
So our cost have increased with zero benefits to anyone by 58p a bottle. Once margins are are applied at the usual wholesaler and retailer percentages this 58p becomes over £1.50 a bottle FOR NO BENEFITS TO ANYONE, and it’s you the consumer that’s paying this.
Now of course the Covid re-boot is also having a massive effect on global supply chains, we see this clearly with our shipments from the rest of the world where lead times have tripled and shipping cost have also tripled.
This has meant that as much as we want to by selling a global selection of wines, pure geography means it’s EU wines that continue to have a firm grip on UK sales. Its for this reason why I believe Brexit is such a bad concept & will never work despite all the gaslighting from BJ
My conclusion is very simple. Not matter how many FTAs the U.K. gets, the one with our nearest neighbours is the most important. You can’t argue against geography, and the Global Covid reboot clearly shows this. We live in a just in time world, Brexit is the exact opposite.
Moreover in a world where we need to use less energy and reduce CO2, buying locally matters like never before. So the obvious answer is stronger relationships with your nearest neighbours. It really is as simple as that in my opinion.

Finally please don’t forget the alcohol reform bill, this is where government actually want to make wine importation even more difficult. Currently 3 levels of tax are applied, but they want 27. Yes 27. Yes you guessed it even higher prices for no benefit to anyone.

End

This wally popped up in the comments:

chris phillips 🇬🇧
@cphillips_ippso
Replying to
@DanielLambert29

This may be the case, but Brexit is about more than just your trade.
Democracy and self determination are far more important than a couple of years of trade difficulties

'Democracy and self determination' being so profitable and life sustaining, of course..

You'll be pleased to hear, of course, that Mr Lambert has set up his business in France; where he will transfer most of his work. His employees in the UK won't be able to transfer easily, of course, because that's what removing freedom of movement has done... So, UK job losses, French job gains...

MaizieD Sun 05-Jun-22 09:38:11

Sorry, should have linked to the twitter thread

twitter.com/DanielLambert29/status/1532991072158220288

Luckygirl3 Sun 05-Jun-22 09:43:50

Whichever way people voted they had the right to expect that, if leaving were the result of the vote, the government would negotiate our future relationship with the EU with intelligence and integrity - hmmm. What a mess it all is.

The truth is that we were never really a proper part of the EU. We were the country sitting on the sidelines carping and refusing to play ball in so many ways.

MaizieD Sun 05-Jun-22 10:05:24

Callistemon21

M0nica

Whose truth are you talking about? Truth unfortunately is generally relative.

He's a sculptor

So his views are pertinent to him of course.
His reasons for voting remain may be different to my views for voting remain.
His views would not have influenced me.

I'm really not sure how one person's, or another person's 'views' have any relevance to the 'truth' about Brexit.

The article about Gormley says this:

Art dealers warned last month that Britain’s reputation as a centre of the trade was fading, as it was revealed that the country’s share of the global art market fell by 3% last year to its lowest point in a decade.

Figures released by HM Revenue and Customs and published in this year’s Art Basel/UBS report on the global art market also showed the value of art and antiques imported into Britain in 2020 was down by a third on 2019.

Brexit is thought to be the chief cause of the sharp decline, although the pandemic has also hindered trade. Increased paperwork and a new requirement to pay import VAT when moving art from the EU to Britain are major deterrents.

Before Brexit, European artists could bring works over for sale without cost. Now they must pay a 5% levy.

This is not a 'view' of the effect of Brexit. It is a fact. It has nothing to do with 'political truth', It is just true.

People are not moving their businesses to the EU because of their political beliefs, they're moving because the facts mean that their businesses suffer if they remain in the UK.

I think there is a world of difference between political beliefs and the actual truth. Political beliefs should not be taken as 'truths'.

Whitewavemark2 Sun 05-Jun-22 10:06:19

The massive elephant in the room though, is that, Brexit was predicated on lies.

DaisyAnne Sun 05-Jun-22 14:31:22

M0nica

In politics, each party has the policies that it believes in implicitly and cannot believe that their arguments based on their absolute truth of the situation can not be blindingly clear to anyone who reads them.

These truths are different depending on which side of the political divide you stand.

This is a political thread and I talk of the ambiguity of competing truths within that context.

M0nica, it is, of course, the case that parties believe in their policies. I'm not sure they would say that is because they are based on an "absolute truth" though. They would surely be more likely to say they are finding answers to facts. Of course, facts can change and progress (or not) by applying those policies.

Your comments make me wonder about the anger we have within politics of recent years. If those that follow a party actually believe their thinking is based on a truth not facts it might explain why some see it like a religion.

The issue I have with your relativism when it comes to "truth" is that, by your measure, it cannot be true.

sandelf Sun 05-Jun-22 14:57:19

There is no 'truth' nor right or wrong. We all voted (I hope) according to our best judgement at the time. Now we have to go forward as best we can. I voted for withdrawal as I could see our armed forces coming under control of Brussels and for me that was a step too far. I knew there would be trade and diplomatic consequences, but I felt loss of autonomy in defence was a higher priority - others feel differently. I was not happy to be called a stupid, racist, nutcase over it. Malice between ourselves just does not help.

HousePlantQueen Sun 05-Jun-22 15:08:32

It is slowly starting to creep into statements and broadcasts though; many people from travel, hospitality, import/export are saying that Brexit has had a detrimental effect on their industries, we can no longer pretend that this is just a few disgruntled remainers. Did anyone else hear Grant Schapps on Sophie Raworth this morning admit that he hadn't voted for Brexit? There is no cause to rejoice in being proved right, no joy in watching business struggle, and no joy in blaming people for how they voted. Unlike many of the leave group, who told many of us to 'get over it' and called us 'remoaners' I take no pleasure in seeing how the people of this country were lied to. It is a disgrace and a disaster whichever way you voted.

Jane71 Sun 05-Jun-22 15:12:36

Sandelf
I voted for withdrawal as I could see our armed forces coming under control of Brussels and for me that was a step too far.

I have never considered that a posssibility, certainly not in the medium term. I think that a European armed force was more likely, in a similar way to NATO, and that sounds reasonable to me.
Brexit was never about practical issues, but emotional ones. It was rather like Trump and his 'make America great again' slogan.

Deedaa Sun 05-Jun-22 15:21:40

If the referendum had been treated as the advisory vote that it was supposed to be it could have been used as a basis for discussion about the future. How we saw our future, how much of a part of Europe we wanted to be, what would really be the repercussions of moving away from free trade and free travel would be. Not to mention the loss of research grants and collaboration with colleagues across Europe.

Instead we had the result treated as a done deal and Boris rushing in to Get Brexit Done as fast as possible with depressingly predictable results.

Chestnut Sun 05-Jun-22 15:28:03

Brexit was skewed by covid which has had a far greater impact. The two were in progress at the same time. There is no way of knowing what would have happened without covid. And no-one expected Brexit to sort itself out straight away, it was always going to take time.

Whitewavemark2 Sun 05-Jun-22 15:30:41

👀

Will Hutton

Tory politics may forbid its discussion, but the gathering economic and currency crisis triggered by Brexit can no longer be ignored. Now on the business pages, it will soon be front page. Sterling is in crisis and there’s no sugar-coating the reason why

HousePlantQueen Sun 05-Jun-22 15:39:01

I disagree Chestnut, the electorate were promised great things as soon as Brexit was done remember? We were told that there would be countries queueing up to sign trade deals, that food would be cheaper, so many, too many false promises that it would take too long to list them. Covid has certainly been a major factor, possibly a convenient excuse for the fact that none, not one, of these so called benefits have materialised. My main reason for voting to remain, apart from being happy with the benefits that being a member of the EU brought me, was to look at who was supporting Brexit; Farage, Trump, Bannon, Putin are not people whose opinions I trust, so if they were for it, I was by definition against it. I don't count Johnson in this for as we know, he sat on the fence until he discerned which way would be best for his career.