Suffragette colours and other issues

Galaxy had the last post on the old thread You can call me anything you like Glorianny, I don't think I have any capacity to control what people call me . I agree. However I would say if you cisgender me you misgender me (unforgivable violation we're told) because I don't subscribe to that belief of an internal gender. I acknowledge my biological sex, which remains immutable whatever I believe or in the face of any surgical or chemical alterations I may make to my body. I'm not sure I identify as gender critical, what does that even mean? I don't believe in gender as this innate, but possibly fluid, thing inside me that overrules real science. Is it the same as a soul?
I still await the answer to how a transwomen is the same as me, but my lovely husband and sons aren't?

Glorianny on the last thread you said I accept that the people I meet who tell me they are women are women. How can I not? I can honestly say I've never ever in my life felt the need to tell anyone I'm a woman. Am I in a tiny minority? Do the rest of you find yourself making this statement on first meeting people?

I can honestly say I've never ever in my life felt the need to tell anyone I'm a woman. Am I in a tiny minority? Do the rest of you find yourself making this statement on first meeting people?
No, I have never needed to do that either. I don't think I have ever been unsure as to what sex anyone else is either, which is why I struggle with the 'masculine-looking woman who looks so male that she is shouted at in public places' concept that Glorianny often posts about.

Now and again there may be a contestant on University Challenge or something who could pass for either sex, but under studio lighting when it doesn't matter in the slightest the question flits into then out of my head. I don't think I've ever been genuinely unsure about a flesh and blood person though, even if they 'identify as' trans or non-binary.

To pick up on something another poster said on the previous thread - a woman is most definitely an adult human female, ie someone who was born a woman. A man can never be a woman, no matter what amount of treatment or surgery they have, its a biological impossibility. I am happy to call trans people whichever they prefer out of he/she from politeness (not "they" as that is just idiotic, not to mention somewhat schizophrenic) but it does not mean I actually believe they really are the sex they have chosen to live as. Trying to separate sex from gender is causing untold confusion - they always used to be one and the same and I see no reason why that should change to suit a tiny minority of a minority.

Rosie51
First thanks for
*if you cisgender me you misgender me*(unforgivable violation we're told) because I don't subscribe to that belief of an internal gender.
Then,
Glorianny on the last thread you said, I accept that the people I meet who tell me they are women are women. How can I not? I can honestly say I've never ever in my life felt the need to tell anyone I'm a woman. Am I in a tiny minority? Do the rest of you find yourself making this statement on first meeting people?
I don’t feel the need to tell people meet that I am a woman, (whatever you think that means) even though I mostly wear trousers and have short hair. I don’t even need to tell people I am female.
What peculiar lives people live where they feel the need to state that they are female.
Perhaps the outcome of males claiming to be other than they actually are-and looking like they’re just saying it to be where they shouldn’t be.

Someone's sex is by no means always the most important thing about them. As often as not it makes no difference at all, particularly on email. I've said before that my name could be male or female, and when I've had conversations by email people are often surprised and embarrassed to find I am female. I am not remotely upset by this, as there is no way they could have known and it doesn't matter.

Why, therefore, are we asked to declare bloody pronouns on email sigs? What is the point? Is it so that people know they are dealing with a woman and can react accordingly? I can see no advantage in making people aware of the sex of everyone on a distribution list other than so that they can discriminate.

When I meet people face to face it is immediately obvious that I am a woman, even if I am not in a dress, make-up and heels. There has never been an element of doubt. I realise that people's faces, bodies and 'styles' are different, but I can't help thinking that a woman would have to work at being taken for a man. The sound of a woman's voice is different from a man's - it's not just about depth. The shape of the shoulders, the jawline, so many things are 'tells'.

The 'tiny minority of a minority' shouldn't be driving momentous changes in society, and it seems to me that women being mistaken for men (by those who are prepared to shout at them in public) are a minority even within that minority of a monority. I feel for them, but it doesn't make sense to me for them to set the agenda in this debate.

Good post Doodledog especially about pronouns in emails. I don't actually meet most of the people I'm in email contact with so their sex or self ID is irrelevant to me. Those that I do meet in person, I know their sex or presentation.

The 'tiny minority of a minority' shouldn't be driving momentous changes in society, and it seems to me that women being mistaken for men (by those who are prepared to shout at them in public) are a minority even within that minority of a monority. I feel for them, but it doesn't make sense to me for them to set the agenda in this debate. This absolutely! Changing language for 100% of people when less than 0.5% demand it is just one ludicrous example, especially since the language pertaining to men has never been adjusted by charities, NHS, advertisers etc etc

Ah just what gransnet needs

Yet another Anti-Trans Activist thread

Off to a wonderful start once again by ignoring how the ATA ideology leads directly to harm, not just to trans people but anyone not conforming to gender norms who include women and children.

Because no matter how much proof is shared that this is happening and that the efforts of anti trans activists are leading to bullying, abuse, harassment, discrimination, self harm, suicide and family estrangements, another thread is an opportunity to wipe the slate clean again and pretend it never happened.

Anti trans activism is inherently sexist when it leads to bullying based on gender norms

But off you go yet again...

Sigh

I wonder violetsky if you would also acknowledge that “efforts” of trans-activists have led to bullying, abuse, harassment and discrimination of those who do nothing other than disagree with them.

Or is this something that you yourself would like to pretend has never happened?

Trans activism is itself inherently sexist because it is based on gender norms ie “living like a woman.”

This thread is just a continuation of the last one (link in first post) which ran out of space. It is not 'another anti-trans activist' thread, whatever that means.

Do you mean a thread that is against trans activists? I thought you and others had disassociated yourselves from trans activism? Or are you saying that we are actively anti-trans? If that is the case I hope you have evidence for that accusation, as that would be defamatory, as I'm sure you know. What activities are you accusing us of carrying out, exactly?

Also, you are indirectly accusing us of lying, as, as we tire of saying, we are not even passively anti-trans. We are supportive of transpeople - we just don't believe in the transubstantiation that would allow mento be come women, and don't want men in our safe spaces.

So here, from the 'kind' poster who just wants everyone to play nicely and 'can't deal' with any unpleasantness, is a post saying that those who disagree with her are liars and active in their antipathy to transpeople. Wow. Is this your true colours showing or just rampant hypocrisy?

The idea of dress like a woman and live like a woman are deeply deeply sexist.
The concept of being in the wrong body has led to children being damaged for life. Presumably people are going to be held responsible for that.
I wonder when the legal action starts where it will end.

Puberty blockers are harmless- not true
Mermaids is a good organisation - well we will see very soon.
Gay people havent undergone transition because of homophobia - not true.
Everything is fine at the tavistock - not true
Social affirmation is harmless - oh according to the cass report - no evidence for that.
And you ask about harm. GC feminists have been flagging this for years. Years.

The only reason for announcing pronouns in emails is sexism, and for underhand behaviour.
The need for wrongful use of pronouns has arisen since males have corrupted ‘woman’ to mean them as well as the more correct AHF.
Male, especially intact male claiming to be ‘she’ is just another example of males saying they can have/do what they want.

The two Sandy’s I have worked with, one male, 1 female both do an excellent job but one of them does not help early years girls change soiled clothes, even though we have a ‘2 person with child’ rule. Calling him “she” wouldn’t make it any more acceptable once the deception was revealed.
VS was wrong when she said this is another anti-trans thread. If anything she will turn it into another “anti-female” thread.

My 30 something friend looks like a 12 year old boy ,fact,her partner was cautioned for trying to buy"him" a dvd deemed unsuitable for the age group she was perceived to be .
Neither of them were amused ,it has happened a lot .Does she need to grow her hair long,wear makeup and girly shoes so people can see she is a perfectly normal woman who likes to dress in joggers and training shoes ?Or will she need ID to use female loos?
Ihave never come across anyone being challenged as to their sex in any public loo .I know several FM to Male transgender folk and they dont get cross examined either about how they look

Thanks Doodledog for giving us the opportunity to continue to discuss these important issues. In answer to the questions in your OP; no, I have never witnessed a masculine looking woman being asked to prove her femaleness.

What all the threads on this topic have in common are two fold. Firstly, there's the understandable concern being expressed at the ease with which a man will be able to self id as a woman and as a consequence, gain access to female safe spaces.

Secondly, there's the repeated labelling of those who voice our concerns as being transphobic and regardless of how many times this is denied and rightly so, still the labelling persists.

I want and hope that trans men and trans woman will have happy and full filled lives, that they will live free of intimidation and abuse but not at the expense of natal women.

I truly believe that this is also what the vast majority trans men and trans women want too, but their lives are being spotlighted negatively by the trans activists who have no more respect and compassion for their trans 'brothers and sisters' than they do for natal women.

Women are now 'chest feeders' and 'people who bleed'. Women have now become people that leading politicians are unable to define and/or believe that men can become, simply by identifying as such.

As you say Mollygo this is not another anti-trans thread, there has never been one her on GN and it would be a sad day of there ever were.

here on GN

paddyanne54
I have never come across anyone being challenged as to their sex in any public loo .I know several FM to Male transgender folk and they dont get cross examined either about how they look.
No and until the ridiculous behaviour and harmful intentions of some TW and their supporters, there would have been no need.
It is because of the few TW and their supporters that the majority of trans will suffer.

As Smileless2012 says above

I want and hope that trans men and trans woman will have happy and full filled lives, that they will live free of intimidation and abuse but not at the expense of natal women.
I truly believe that this is also what the vast majority trans men and trans women want too, but their lives are being spotlighted negatively by the trans activists who have no more respect and compassion for their trans 'brothers and sisters' than they do for natal women.

Strange that some, even on GN, who are so ready with unwarranted cries of ‘transphobia’ and ‘anti-trans’ are so blinkered about the impact the harmful TaF are having on trans who have been living unnoticed or wish to do so.

As an aside, related to the previous thread. After I read the thread I did see a women wearing a yellow and green plaid patterned scarf sat with the
Scotish MPs in the WM Parliament on TV.

I too have never come across a "butch" looking woman being challenged in toilets or changing rooms - and I should know because I am one. Haven't worn a skirt in 20 years and have very short spiky hair - my choice and does not detract from the fact that I am a woman.