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But was it wrong…?

(49 Posts)
CvD66 Wed 28-Feb-24 08:41:49

..or was it Islamophobic? Yesterday proved hilarious, watching the various Tories, sent out on the media round, trying to stick to the party line and refuse to agree that Lee Anderson’s comments were Islamophobic! Hoping for this matter to die down, they have successful made it into a media sport: Who can get the first Tory to break ranks! Great way not to suppress a story.

NotSpaghetti Wed 28-Feb-24 08:44:32

It was quite ridiculous!

Whitewavemark2 Wed 28-Feb-24 08:47:22

They simply talk gibberish

Baggs Wed 28-Feb-24 08:55:41

Many opinions are wrong but this doesn't mean that they should not be expressed. I think there exists a real (i.e. not phobic) fear of extreme Islamism, which is not the same as being unreasonably prejudiced against Muslims. The latter would be wrong.

eazybee Wed 28-Feb-24 09:24:01

I heard a considerable amount of sensible discussion about the use of language and the meaning of words.

Use 'Islamaphobic' plus 'hatred' plus 'racism' and it is an effective way of closing down most conversations on the subject.

One has only to watch transgender groups and their use of 'transphobic' in response to any expression of unease about this subject to see how it is applied.

MaizieD Wed 28-Feb-24 09:32:47

I think a good test would be to substitute Jew for Islamist in these 'conversations' and see how they then bear scrutiny.

This would, of course, also apply to conversations, such as Anderson's, where 'Islamist' is implied rather than explicitly stated.

Mollygo Wed 28-Feb-24 09:34:05

Well put eazybee

Baggs Wed 28-Feb-24 09:56:16

Jew is not equivalent to Islamist.

maddyone Wed 28-Feb-24 10:38:16

Baggs

Many opinions are wrong but this doesn't mean that they should not be expressed. I think there exists a real (i.e. not phobic) fear of extreme Islamism, which is not the same as being unreasonably prejudiced against Muslims. The latter would be wrong.

This.

Scribbles Wed 28-Feb-24 11:02:09

Baggs

Many opinions are wrong but this doesn't mean that they should not be expressed. I think there exists a real (i.e. not phobic) fear of extreme Islamism, which is not the same as being unreasonably prejudiced against Muslims. The latter would be wrong.

I entirely agree.

Urmstongran Wed 28-Feb-24 11:05:26

It was all a veritable word salad wasn’t it?

MaizieD Wed 28-Feb-24 11:06:25

Baggs

Jew is not equivalent to Islamist.

In the case we are discussing, which was Anderson's perpetuation of the politically planted and encouraged belief that Muslims are immanently going to take over the UK (supported by a number of Gnet posters), along with, also planted, belief that all Muslims are potential Islamic terrorists who wish ill to the UK, it seems like a perfectly valid substitution to me.

The argument that it isn't racist because Islamists are not a race and Jews are is refuted by the working definition of Islamophobia produced by an All Party Parliamentary Group

“Islamophobia is rooted in racism and is a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness”

Baroness Wasi details how it was developed here on a twitter thread:

twitter.com/SayeedaWarsi/status/1762033144541171940

If you can't / don't 'do' twitter I can copy and paste it for you.

MaizieD Wed 28-Feb-24 11:08:56

Anderson's statement was not an opinion. It was a completely unfounded racist slander designed to perpetuate fear.

Iam64 Wed 28-Feb-24 11:21:59

MaizieD

Anderson's statement was not an opinion. It was a completely unfounded racist slander designed to perpetuate fear.

Exactly
If the word black or Jew was substituted they’d be no argument. Nor should there be

Cossy Wed 28-Feb-24 11:42:06

Iam64

MaizieD
Anderson's statement was not an opinion. It was a completely unfounded racist slander designed to perpetuate fear.
Exactly
If the word black or Jew was substituted they’d be no argument. Nor should there be

Completely agree.

Labradora Wed 28-Feb-24 13:19:08

The BBC seems to think that Anderson actually used the term "Islamist" .
Anderson doesn't strike me as the sharpest knife in the block and I honestly wonder if he himself understands the terms that he is using.
A main point has to be whether Anderson's belief that the Mayor(and/or London itself) is under the disproportionate CONTROL of any group is correct or not.
If Sadiq and the London Council are not under the disproportionate control of any group then one of the most significant issues re Anderson's statement is that , simply, it is a factually WRONG statement.
Of course he would be wrong to conflate All Muslims with the the term "Islamists" which I have always understood to mean extremists .
I think Easybee and Baggs make good points.

keepingquiet Wed 28-Feb-24 13:23:35

'Not the sharpest knife in the block...' can say that again!

Witzend Wed 28-Feb-24 13:40:14

I think we need a new word. Muslims are not a race, in the way that the vast majority of Jewish people are, since Jewishness descends via the mother.
Muslims come in all different colours and converts are not uncommon.
How about ‘religionist’?

Grantanow Wed 28-Feb-24 13:46:42

Hilarious watching various hapless Tories avoid the question. The reason Sunak, Dowden and other Tories can't categorise Anderson as a racist and Islamophobe is they know they have a lot of Tory MPs and grass roots members who support his views but they can't admit that otherwise they would be accepting Lady Warsi is right about Islamophobia being rife in the Tory party.

Baggs Wed 28-Feb-24 13:54:53

Fear of extreme Islamism is not Islamophobia.

Islamophobia is irrational dislike/hatred of Muslims.

Baggs Wed 28-Feb-24 13:56:17

I think it is extreme Islamism that those grassroots Tories (and probably non-Tories) fear, not ordinary Muslim people.

Baggs Wed 28-Feb-24 13:59:59

Yes, witz, as I understand it, extreme islamists want to impose their laws and caliphate on everyone else. This is a religio-political thing rather than just a religious belief system.

Baggs Wed 28-Feb-24 14:00:51

Christianity used to be similarly proselytising.

Labradora Wed 28-Feb-24 14:18:43

Considered criticism of any aspect of Islam(or Judaism or Christianity) is not Islamophobia or ( Judaismophobia or Christianophobia ) either.

Obviously one pays notice to context , timing, language and tone when criticising anything or anybody , but you should be allowed to do it without being dismissed as being racist.

MaizieD Wed 28-Feb-24 14:51:07

Baggs

I think it is extreme Islamism that those grassroots Tories (and probably non-Tories) fear, not ordinary Muslim people.

In which case, Baggs, how do you account for Anderson's remarks?

No, he didn't use the word 'Islamist' but when he spoke of Sadiq Khan being controlled by his mates who were running London I don't think he was referring to Khan's fellow Labour party members. Nor to peaceful, law abiding Muslims.