Fading Women

I should like to outlaw the expression "the wrong side of" as in "the wrong side of 40 or 50. I should also like to do away with little grey-haired old ladies – not literally, but the hypothetical ones who pop up in broadcast discussions about street crime, traffic calming and so on. As a 5-foot 9-inch blonde who has always thought of herself as a woman rather than a lady, I deeply resent being categorised in this way. I'm not enthusiastic about "silver surfers" either, having used a computer for decades. It's just as condescending to those who have more recently discovered the internet as if somehow they have defied nature. "Senior" has been hijacked too – once it implied wisdom and experience as well as older, but now it seems to be just a euphemism for old and useless. Perhaps the media thinks of older women as being useless non-members of society because they can no longer bear children – how prehistoric is that? Cross? Moi? You bet.

Reading this, I think I will copy to this thread my post to the topic "grey moments" - it is relevant here too. It is not just the media who have dismissed us.. Here are two accounts of postgraduate PhD theses which seem to regard anyone over 50 or so as a doddering old fool.

"There was an article in the Daily Telegraph online recently on this very subject - or actually an account of a PhD study by some callow student or other. [[www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8463313/Spring-clean-your-mind-to-improve-your-memory.html[[

Read the comments as well (mine is by 31bus )- a lot of people thought the conclusions highly patronising.

There was another PhD thesis reported on at [[www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8383371/Over-60s-shouldnt-walk-and-talk-while-crossing-the-road.html[[
You might find this raises your dander too."

The links in my previous post do not seem to have copied very well. I shall try repeating them here as I can't see a way to edit a post.

www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8463313/Spring-clean-your-mind-to-improve-your-memory.html
and
www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8383371/Over-60s-shouldnt-walk-and-talk-while-crossing-the-road.html

I also saw that article in the Telegraph about how older people shouldn't talk on their mobiles while crossing the road and I would have fallen over laughing if I hadn't done so much yoga (my balance is just too good).

Who, exactly, should concentrate on something else while crossing a busy road? Is this a safe activity for middle aged men? Teenagers?

The fact that the over 60s took things more slowly may simply have shown they were aware what a stupid thing it was to do.

I was moved to comment, like this:-

" "The findings suggest that while all pedestrians should exercise caution when attempting to cross a street while conversing on a phone, older adults should be particularly careful."

They should also exercise caution when attempting the lotus position while eating spaghetti bolognaise with chopsticks, and when dancing the lambada in 6 inch heels while filling in a census form online.

Pensioners are not generally to be found crossing busy streets while using a phone. They are more accustomed to giving their full attention to the person they are speaking to. This used to be called good manners."

and on the other report (the memory one) I wrote:-

"So the old are not so good as the young at memorising a series of images and then recalling them while a researcher tries to distract them. Does it matter? If we can't remember half-a-dozen items from the supermarket we can make a shopping list. That is what writing was invented for. If we then leave it behind on the kitchen table, we can always walk around scanning the shelves until we see something that was (probably) on the list.

Recently another young sprog told us that oldies should take extra care when simultaneously crossing roads and using a mobile phone. Can we expect a definitive study soon on the relative abilities of students and grandmothers when learning how to suck eggs? "

Searching for a boy's dressing gown in M and S, and unable to find one, I asked a sales assistant where they were. 'Oh we haven't got any at the moment, but if you can get someone to look on the Internet for you...' She got no further as I drew myself up to my full height (5ft 4 and shrinking) and asked imperiously if she was implying that I couldn't use a computer. I don't think she will make that mistake again! Oh and I did get one from their web site!

I remember Ruby Wax saying that, one day she walked down the street and realised she had become invisible, and, soon afterwards that's what happened to me. Even more so when I was with my daughter; long blond hair and legs to die for.....I just wish I'd appreciated the time when I wasn't invisible.

absentgrana just wanted to say that, as another 5'9'' blonde, I'd like to endorse every word of your post!

As for the PhD study that purports to show 60+s are less good at processing information, it doesn't so far seem to be impeding me from doing my own full-time PhD at a prestigious university, involving reading/ researching in five languages and synthesizing the results.

Ruby Wax invisible? Hmm. At least she will never be inaudible!

Jane Austen observed that a woman of 55 may safely expect not to be desired so it's not a new thing.
I just hate the hyphenated "mother-of-three,49 " that the newspapers indulge in as if either age or progeny can define you. Can you imagine the news today if they wrote Elizabeth mother- of- four, 80 met Michelle mother-of-two,40 in London for talks-the newspapers only do it to paint an illfitting picture for the readers

Someone once told me that after age 50 women become invisible.
I have discovered that seems about right !
I get overlooked in shops and talked over in conversations ALL the time !

TOWNIE- a few years ago I came across a newspaper article about the achievement of a 90 year old Australian woman who had just completed a PhD. it has inspired me ever since. Not that I have got that far but I did return to study at University for a two year period, sat in classes of 'mature' students ( the average mature age of 21+) and enjoyed the fact that my little grey cells were still functioning well enough to complete degree level essays. Well you could say I have at least 30 yrs left to complete a PhD if I so desired and looking at it that way it's a whole lifetime of opportunity ?

I'm pacing floor with anger and frustration following today's news about appalling care of elderly in NHS.

Having spent about 8 years negotiating (with horror) the system with my mother until her death in 2006, I swore I would try to do something, anything to try to get what is going on out into the public forum.

But I turned my head to the wall, unable to face it all again. But now there's Gransnet and so can I ask everyone out there to bang the drum as loudly as we can to make it clear that we have to stop the neglect and cruelty that's out there. Believe me, it is horrendous.

I wanted to start a new forum on this but got lost trying to do it. sorry!

So, what should we be happy to be called as a group of older women? Unless you are a very young grandmother, however good we feel and look (I am five foot eleven, size 12, and very keen on clothes; a recently retired successful professional), we are in the third part of our lives. I dislike the little old lady image, the silver surfer, the sixty is the new forty etc, etc.
We are probably all post war baby boomers who grew up in the Sixties and many of us have been fortunate to have successful careers as well as raising children. We don't want to be patronized or ignored, don't want to wear beige and elasticated trousers, but it is a fact that we become less visible to the rest of the population. I have decided that I am going to be an Alpha Crone!

It is possible to change national perceptions of any age group, and gransnet is probably the body to do it. However, it demands a determination to "accept no substitutes" when it comes to terminology.
But exactly how to refer to ourselves in an accurate, non-demeaning way that involves a necessary label is not so easy. Just to get the ball rolling (and with tongue firmly in cheek), how about .....?
* Golden Girls
* Hell's Grannies
* Spleenagers
* Super-Citizens
* Mature Mommas
And the collective noun for a group of us? Possibly an encyclopaedia of grannies or even a treasury of grannies. Starting to feel more visible already!

Sorry, forgot to add my favourite for collective nouns: a giggle of grannies. Far more appropriate!

Surely, a wisdom of grannies.

I remember my own grandmother saying to me "it isn't the mind that gets old dear it is just the body that wears out" how right she was and she still had a young mind even until till she died at the age of 95.
So ladies let our voices be heard too! Let us not be defined as invisible!!

I am a retired teacher with many years experience of conversing with young people on all sorts of levels but was brought to a full and gasping halt by a young male hairdressing assistant who said, "Just come and sit down here, dear."
DEAR! DEAR! oh dear! What a blow to my self-esteem. I was speechless for about two minutes. I think that he was trying to be kind and accomodating but it was sooooo patronising.
I may have retired but my brain is still working and I'm still a blonde (with a little help from my hair salon) but it made me think.
I love the title 'Spleenagers' from GrandmaAnge. Just a bit of warning of the likelihood of a bit of temper or grumpiness if crossed! Speak out and keep all those whipersnappers on their toes!!

You should have responded, "OK sonny". I have noticed that young men seem not to like that. Or maybe asked him whether he only worked there after school hours.

I have HATED being called dear all my life - when you are younger you feel about 6, when you get to middle age or past you feel absolutely decrepit.The only time it does not feel like an insult is when it is said by a motherly person a good bit older than you who does, indeed, mean it affectionately.

I have noticed, too, that the same people ready to call me dear are also punctilious in calling my husband sir. If he is sir, then I am madam, full stop. Had an acrimonious phone exchange on the subject with a greasy-sounding patronising chap who I suspect thought I was an office junior. He ended up thinking I was a bad-tempered cow, but he did become more respectful.

Nurses are some of the worse culprits with the "dear" thing I'm afraid.

I was horrified this week to hear a BBC reporter say that the (white haired) woman who wants to head up the IMF was known for her "flair and elegance". I suspect there is more to her than a bit of French elegance! Brain the size of a planet, that kind of thing maybe. It was good to hear her say unashamedly (and in perfect English - she worked as a lawyer in Chicago at one stage) that being a woman was a positive aspect to her candidature.
One of the many good things about women is they so rarely get accused of leaping on chambermaids...

I've just been called "mate" by the mechanic at the garage. Must get my moustache waxed.....

I actually told the young man in the local newsagents I did NOT want to be called 'dear' - it made me feel old and patronised (it actually horrifieed me). He hasn't done it since!

Nobody ever calls me dear. Delivery chappies call me mate. I still turn heads, male and female, even tho I'm nothing special to look at. However, someone I was at school with recently contacted me because she had seen a photo and recognised me: "I remembered the eyes."
Just look alive, guys, and ignore the media!