Do you think that in a civilised society prison should only be imposed for the most heinous offences?

All sorts of theories about young men offending Lilygran. Rebellion, anomie, unemployment, peer pressure, deprived communities, lack of good role models, single parent families, testosterone - take your pick!

IT (Intermediate Treatment) used to be the thing that tended to work because it was linked in with local employment and education, then Youth Offending Services took on the role with teenagers.

Cynically, the old adage about 'the love of a good woman' does indeed have a positive effect on curtailing offending. Young men grow up!

On a previous post I mentioned that a dear friend of ours is now serving a prison sentence for something he did 35 years ago and is now imprisoned at the age of 60, away from his family and forced to take early retirement.

He sends us a weekly letter and will, when released this year, begin to riase funding for more educational programmes in prisons. He has been totally shocked by the lack of rehabilitation programmes (and he is in what is termed an "open" prison with people who have commited "minor" offences) and would agree with everything that Gransnetters have written about early intervention.

What is shocking for our friend is that his sentence was determined by a judge who thought he "should be made an example", whereas the crime he commited 35 years ago would normally be punished with community service.....leads to the question of how judges can vary their interpretation of the punishment required in each case?

We have to do everything we can to support policies of early intervention in families where children are treated cruelly, missing school and becoming social pariahs early in their lives. There should be red alerts on all medical, school, probation, social workers' records, that are shared in all agencies, in order to identify these children and then, and only then, can help be given in order to prevent many of the crimes that are punishable at present with prison sentences.

Fondasharing open prisons (Cat D) are not for minor offences, but for lowered risk prisoners, including successfully rehabilitated murderers coming to the end of their sentence, who can leave the prison to attend work nearby. Your friend won't find so much education and training facilities within such a prison as the idea is to plug into what is available beyond the prison. That includes taking home leave in hostels or with the family, where appropriate, in order to set up employment, education, training, voluntary work or to show a responsible lifestyle can be maintained on release. Many open/Cat D prisoners attend college or paid/unpaid work five days a week.

In local, training and high security prisons, there is a massive programme of training and education for prisoners, with in-house staff, contracted colleges and promotion of Open College and OU participation. Some prisoners can be trained as literacy and numeracy mentors, to support other prisoners on an individual basis. Of course, prisoners have to engage in offending behaviour and drug/alcohol treatment programmes, see doctors, solicitors, visitors, chaplains or whomever is relevant for them, so there's a lot that can be crammed into their days that can divert them from benefiting from education.

If your friend discusses his concerns with his personal officer, education staff or probation officer, perhaps they will help him find what he can do to participate or contribute.

When people recommend that a life sentence should mean life, I think that they should spare a thought for prison officers and others who work in prisons. If a criminal is given a full life sentence without parole it would, presumably, be for murder or more than one murder. There is then absolutely no reason why he shouldn't attack and kill a prison officer to whom he has taken a dislike or kill another prisoner who is not showing respect or any other kind of murder and mayhem – because what can they do to him that hasn't already been done. That way lies the brutal corrections system of the USA. I should hate to see our already failing penal system develop that way.

Whenim has described the programme called Intermediate Treatment. When I volunteered for a charity working mainly with child offenders, I was always struck by the common thread running through their stories: truanting, nothing to fill their time except low level crime and lack of supervision. I'd much rather we spent money on intervention at that stage than on the courts and prison when they are old enough to be prosecuted or when they've progressed to more serious crime.

I made that point earlier in the thread Absent if there is no " time off for good behaviour" then there is absolutely no incentive to behave in prison as it will make no difference anyway.

Slight wobble on the original thread but can I dare ask how everyone stands on the death penalty ? I will start by saying I am totally against it for any crime.

Against it, too, although there are times when I am sorely tempted on a personal level, particularly regarding horrific crimes against children. But no, murder by the state is anathema to me - a barbaric way to react to barbaric crimes.

Re whole of life terms - as I said before :

"The worst murders should have a 'life' sentence meaning whole of life."
For this I mean people like Charles Manson or Ian Brady.

I agree that the possibility of parole is essential for running a prison.

Totally agree with you on that when how can any civilzed society consider murder as a punishment for murder?