Dealing with sexism - If you could go back......

No rose .Women don’t send dangerous messages, Men rape , men rape, men rape. If rapists stayed at home, women would be safe walking down a dark alley.

SirChenjin

Thankfully I was never raped, it never got that far thank goodness, but it could have done.

But I agree with Rosecarmel, women have to be careful, make sensible choices, and not put themselves in dangerous situations.

I remember my older female cousins warning me about one uncle. One day he grabbed me from behind to play a "tickling game" and his hands were grabbing at my breasts. My father had taught me some self defence and I swung my elbow back into his face causing him to let go. I told him if he ever touched me again I would tell my father - who would have probably killed him.

I was also able to use those self defence techniques when leaving work one evening, a colleague grabbed me in the car park and pushed me up against the wall. I reported him next day to my manager, who spoke with the man and I was later told that I had "misunderstood" and that it was "just a joke"

I think many of us have similar experiences, unfortunately back then it wasn't treated seriously. Fortunately today there is a different attitude.

No rose - women (and men) who are attacked and assaulted are not to blame, ever. Rapes in dark alleys account for a very small percentage of (successful) rape convictions - you’re far more likely to be attacked by someone you know in an environment you know. There is no ‘acceptable’ place to attack or rape anyone.

This mindset that women must somehow take full responsibility for ensuring they are safe at all times continues to put the blame at the feet of women and we must stop that - the focus must be that men must not attack or assault or murder.

What they really mean is if I do this I will be safe and another woman will be raped or assaulted. Firstly that's just magical thinking and won't keep you safe. Secondly I dont think women are like wildebeest where it's ok for some of us to be 'picked off'. Men who rape won't not rape because on a particular night a woman didn't walk down a dark street.

Exactly Galaxy - well said

I like many women of my generation could write a very long list of times I have been treated wrongly as I female.
Starting at age 9 when I was messed with by a friends uncle. I have escaped attempted rape 3 times (one that I don’t think I would be here today if I had not got away) plus several assaults both sexually and physically.
I have been discriminated against in the work place and loads of other instances over my lifetime.
I feel the younger generation do not always realise how different it was for women in my day.
I wish now I had been stronger and at age 63 I am finally standing up for myself.

Exactly, SirChenjin. EVERY single time I was assaulted I was 'safely' indoors, with friends in the vicinity.

Stranger rape is rare. Most women are assaulted by friends or family or at the very least, acquaintances.

NoRose, how would you suggest women go about protecting themselves against friends/family?

I had a teacher at school who behaved inappropriately on several occasions. This was the mid 70s. My older sister found out what happened and paid him a visit, he never did it again after that. We didn't report him because people just didn't then. However, it put me off men for a very long time.

My brother in law sexually assaulted me on several occasions when I was a teenager and told me that if I told anyone "Nobody would believe me."

I did tell my mum actually, but she brushed it under the carpet as she didn't want to create any fuss - and implied I must have encouraged him in some way!!

He is still my brother in law and relations are non-existent between me and my sister. He got the sack from several jobs over the years for being a sexual predator.

I was 13, staying with a school friend when a male friend of theirs came into the room pulled up the sheet and touched me to see if I 'was a woman' yet! When I told my friend about this she accused me of lying. I never got over it!
At 17, I just wish that I'd had the courage to knee the man who grabbed my boob in a Durban market, in the nuts. I just cringed and ran away!

So - what IS foolish behaviour? I ask as (both still ok to walk) my OH and I walk in the countryside locally - on public footpaths. I know that if he becomes unable to come with me - I will NEVER do this. I'm sure I would be continually on the lookout for lone men ahead or behind. Not really right is it?

I disagree, Sara65. Men must stop creating the dangerous situations. It is entirely the responsibility of men not to assault women. Or each other, for that matter.

Never let men get away with believing that 'the woman asked for it'. Or 'put herself at risk'.

It is never the fault of the victim.

I think the fact that many of us have vivid memories of these incidents, even 40, 50 or 60 years on, shows how much these assaults affect women. When these things happened to us it was rarely reported because either we wouldn't be believed, or because we must have been "asking for it" in some way.

I for one am glad women are no longer accepting this attitude.

Looking back, I had really only one incident of inappropriate behavior at work. More of a wolf-whistle that was repeated whenever I went on the factory floor from the office. It was dealt with by management immediately when I came into the office annoyed one day. The young fellow was disciplined, and it did not happen again.

I am very glad of the 'me too' movement for bringing these issues to light, and shaming the men into owning up to indecent behavior.

I can remember 3 occasions in my teens when I had to run fast to get away men who expected sex as a right.

In the 60s I had an office job attached to a big engineering company. They moved a chap in from the workshops to work with me. He was hopeless, what little work he managed, I would have to redo. I found that he was being paid twice as much as me as he was a married man. I had several meetings with management about this inequality but they were unable to budge. I love the film about the Dagenham girls, it resonates with me about those times.

In fact thinking about that band of women, I wonder why some of our older male members aren’t recalling being sexually harassed in the work place.

No sandelf, it’s not right at all. I’m willing to bet that your DH doesn’t think that way - he’s not worried about being sexually assaulted or raped, and if he were it would be a shocking event with every sympathy directed at him. If you were attacked there’s a mindset amongst some that you were foolish and that you somehow created that incident because you didn’t take sufficient care.

Nope, it’s not right - on so many levels.

As someone said upthread said many women had unwanted advances and experiences in earlier life, especially now older women like me.
My M had lots of married couples as friends and I put up with horrible kissing and groping from the men as a young girl.
I could never have told her.
I also had similar from my H’s much older brother when he first introduced me to his family.
I found out much later my, by then,SiL had the same experience with him and we both made sure we were never alone with him.

sandelf So - what IS foolish behaviour? I ask as (both still ok to walk) my OH and I walk in the countryside locally - on public footpaths. I know that if he becomes unable to come with me - I will NEVER do this. I'm sure I would be continually on the lookout for lone men ahead or behind. Not really right is it?

I am exactly the same and it annoys me!!

50+ years ago when I was a teenager in my first job a customer put his hand up my overall. One of my bosses saw it had a very loud and shouty one sided conversation and barred him from the business.

The boss, a man in his late thirties, then took me into the office made sure I was alright and told me I was never to put up with anyone doing anything like that. If it happened again at work to tell him and that I wasn't ever to stay silent but to shout out if it happened any where else.

What an enlightened man he was, it was a family run business and a lovely place to work. My mum never told me anything about this as I don't think she'd thought about it so I was really lucky to have such a good boss.

That advice stuck with me and many years later in another job I was with my boss at a London bank negotiating a loan of many thousands. I was the only woman in the group, it was all very posh, we were all in business suits.

As we were walking from the conference room to the dining room one of their directors pinched my bum very hard. I had with me my hardshell briefcase :-) I didn't feel as if I could "shout out loud" as my first boss told me to :-(

However, I brought my briefcase back and gave him a sharp bang on the shin :-) :-):-) He said "Ouch" and I said I was so terribly sorry.

In my bosses car on the way back to HO he asked why I'd whacked the man with my case so I told him, he wasn't happy. He asked me to give him time and trust him, he would do something.

My boss asked me if I'd ever been treated like that on site (I was running a building site at the time) I never had been and he said I never should be. Another good chap and a lovely boss.

Once we were back at work he asked around and there were other women who this man had touched by the man so he got us together and in the end the Banking firm sacked the man. We still got the loan :-)

My girls don't let this treatment go either, one is "a techie bird" in IT, her words, and the other is in engineering so both work with lots of men but seem to have a good rapport or have been very lucky.

But I must admit I brought them up with the advise of my first boss, don't put up with this treatment and don't stay silent.

I'm glad things are changing but there is a place for banter and for us not to be offended by everything. It's a delicate line between "A bit of Fun" and overstepping the mark but out and out inappropriate behaviour needs to be stomped on every time.

Amagran

Don’t misunderstand me, like many woman of my generation I’ve been treated inappropriately on many occasions.

I think woman should be able to wear whatever they wish, go wherever they wish, all without the fear of being raped or abused.

The sad fact is, that there are some men out there who think dressing in short dresses or walking home alone, is an invitation to have sex, it is NOT

Therefore, it makes sense to be careful, I know I’ve been lucky to an extent, I left home at 15, having had quite a sheltered upbringing, and suddenly, I was free.

Women are never ever to blame, and it sickens me whenever you hear someone say, well she asked for it, but as long as there are men like that out there, we have to be alert and careful.

No it's not right.
Women live with an informal curfew.
I felt always it was dangerous to be out alone after dark because it was.
It is time men were put under more pressure to stop behaving as if any lone woman was fair game.
It is still happening and attitudes have only just started to move on.
Like many here I have been raped and assaulted and grew to be very angry about it. I chose to stomp about in Dr Martins so that the message was clear.
Also as a teen going to work on the London Underground it was common to be groped which disgusted me. My friends and I would step back to tread on their feet if we could, as the attacker was usually behind us. though not always.
In the end I changed how I dressed during the day and would only go out with friends in the evening...but that is also a kind of curfew.
Also you had to be very alert the whole time you were out.

Was very very lucky to grow up with two older brothers who would look out for me, and told me to take no nonsense from anyone. I was working at the local Coop after school when in 6th form, and the manager was an old lecherer who would squeeze by me so to touch my bum or breasts. One day, filling the shelves, I accidentally dropped a jar of pickled onions and he went mental. I had been paid the day before, and the shop was full of customers- so I got up, told him where he could put his job and that it will be a pleasure not to be touched by such a disgusting old man. Took my pinny off and handed it to him and walked out. The customers all cheered and clapped.

Yes, when I was 21 I was asked in an interview when I was going to start a family! Another occasion on a train, two very drunk colleagues were extremely rude to me and I did nothing. My goodness the 69 year old me would have dealt with both situations very differently....

sara it’s heartbreaking to me that you are taking blame for “stupid choices”. It’s never the victims fault.

More focus needs to be on “DONT assult” vs “don’t make stupid choices”