Dealing with sexism - If you could go back......

When I was in the RAF, some chaps would have a conversation but “with my chest”....I don’t know where I got the confidence, but I would openly point to my face and say “I am actually up here”!

More recently this year in europe, I helped a young Russian girl who was walking a disused remote cliff road alone (I felt protective, as in she is someone’s daughter) and told her where I would be if she needed company (I knew there were odd people frequenting the area).

An hour later I saw her high above me on a narrow cliff path, she was unaware that I could see a man very close by, pursuing her. I blew a loud whistle from my rucksack repeatedly whilst waving, she acknowledged, retreated backwards to safety, and the man backed off and left.

I sometimes have to look “assertive” and have had to tell the odd european man, if I am out walking in remote locations, whilst pointing to my chest, that I am “Polis” - I am not of course, but they have backed off and it has saved me from some scrapes.

I had no idea what happened to me when it did- I was clueless sexually- I was about 14 years old when it happened- But if I knew what could happen to me I would have had the knowledge to be pro-active- I don't blame myself for not knowing but I'm sharing this story to encourage open, ongoing discussions with people you love-

It didn't happen at home, I wasn't drinking- It happened at night on the railroad tracks- When asked what happened to me I actually had no idea how to describe it-

All these years later understand how much worse "things" could have turned and remain grateful they didnt-

oh I just caught the mood of this thread, If people need to know what actual garments were worn when people were raped, this is an example of the exhibitions on the subject.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/rape-victims-clothes-displayed-brussels-belgium-debunk-victim-blaming-myth-a8152481.html

If I could I'd go back I would pretend not to understand every single sexist joke and ask them to explain it till they got uncomfortable and went away.

perhaps grandtante

could read my above post then

sorry rosecarmel I didn't see that you were responding to Grandtante

grandtante Most sexual attacks do not happen in dark lanes or on country lanes they occur in the home, mainly between people who know each other, drink is often involved. In situations where one partner says 'no' and the other chooses to ignore that 'no'

I suspect rose was asking Grandtante what she/he thinks a prostitute looks like following their shockingly ignorant earlier post.

rosecarmel

There is not a single defined image of a prostitute

If it is a woman working the streets they usually dress in an obvious way......
If it is a high class hooker then she will dress posh and conservative.

And all the levels in between.
The street sex workers are the most obvious.....
Do you really not know this?

How can you not know?

Obvious is short shorts pushed up bra nand maybe t*ts out.
maybe no knickers ...
most i know wear lots of make up and have dyed hair.
however do not forget it could be someone dressing up for a party so you also must factor in behaviour.

Approaching men...men in cars etc

I was off sick with Glandular Fever from work as a Student Nurse and had to see the Occ Health doctor. He kept telling me it was the kissing sickness and asking about my boyfriend and what we had got up to. I was very confused as I didn’t have a boyfriend. Looking back I see how inappropriate it was but didn’t have the courage to speak up. I’m glad that the youth of today are better informed and less likely to just put up with people in authority doing and saying what they want.

I woke up one morning with a strange woman next to me- (long story) She was a prostitute- I'd of never known unless I was told-

A dear friend from my teen years was labeled as dressing like a hooker- Her mum was labeled the same- They attended church service to snickers and smirks and whispering- The majority of which were women -

Again ...what does a prostitute look like?

grandtanteJE65
You really believe that rapists only rape young women who wear common-place night club clothing? What about the old age pensioner who was raped in her home by a burglar recently? Asking for it with her cocoa and walking frame was she? People desperate to blame and shame women above the rapist make me wonder about their integrity.

yes the bottom line raping a woman is rape weather is up for "business" or not.

Some men still do not understand the word No.

Grandtante65

are you leading a life more removed than many?
You claim to have had no unwelcome sexual advances that you couldn't brush off and now you ask what does a prostitute look like?

In my experience prostitutes that work on the streets make themselves quite obvious.

PS. It's also wrong to rape prostitutes.

Again, sorry if this has dredged up unwanted memories for anyone. Hopefully we can all see that we weren't alone in what happened to us, and not the only ones who feel they might not have done enough at the time.
@Blondiescot - Please don't be ashamed that you froze when you were convinced you would have acted differently. There have actually been studies and experiments to show that no matter how prepared we think we are, we don't always do what we thought we'd do.
Magsymoo - I'm so sorry about your experience. I would urge you to have some counseling to help you decide what to do and how to "come out" about it.
@Sara65 - I read a very interesting thread recently on Twitter, in which experts and rape victims alike were urging others (like us mothers) NOT to insist or even try to persuade rape victims to go to the police. The victims have already lost their control and making them do something else that they don't want to do can actually make things worse. The thread was on Dr. Jessica Eaton's Twitter handle. She is very interesting.
@MOnica - agreed that we always advise people of both sexes not to take risks; the difference however, is that victims of other crimes are rarely held to be partly responsible for what happens to them AND shamed about it.

But, how is a person (man) supposed to distinguish between a prostitute touting for hire and a woman who would not welcome his advances if we all dress provocatively?

That post and the above paragraph indicates a level of ignorance so significant that I hardly know where to start.

Ok. Let’s assume you genuinely don’t understand the difference between a young woman walking home after a night out in her skimpy gladrags (like my 20 year old daughter), minding her own business, and a prostitute. What do you think a prostitue dresses? Do you think that men looking for prostitutes find them on main streets of a town or do you think that there are areas they might go to? How do you think prostitutes are procured in 2019?
Do you find it difficult to tell the difference between a male prostitute and a young man in his tight trousers that leave nothing to the imagination?

What does a prostitute look like?

GrandtanteJE65

Unfortunately I don't believe rape and assault are uncommon in this country.

It is not harsher sentences that will deter men IMO
It is educating men that attacking women is really very wrong....

Except that will not deter the violent and sick in the head rapists who are beyond reason
Education will only work for the men who don't really get that it is not ok to force yourself on a woman.

There has been an argument that if the sentence is harsher then the rapist may then commit murder so that his victim cannot testify against him.
I don't know what can be done against the hardcore rapists.
I want longer prison for men who attack women and children.
But be careful not to tip the criminal into murder.

This is a very difficult topic.

Do women or men for that matter really have the right to wear whatever they please?

I know a lot of you will say yes, what we wear is no excuse for inappropriate comments, assault or rape and up to a point I agree. There is never any excuse for assault or rape.

But, how is a person (man) supposed to distinguish between a prostitute touting for hire and a woman who would not welcome his advances if we all dress provocatively?

And why should I and other women be expected to like seeing men walking around without a shirt on in the summer, or wearing trousers so tight that nothing is left to the imagination?

Everyone should be able to walk home alone, at any hour of the day or night, take a country walk without having to feel afraid, but unless the punishment for assault, mugging and rape are more severe than at present the relatively few people that commit these offences will continue to do so.

SirChenjin is correct in his/her post @10:27 today in stating that "There’s always a very real risk that kicking out will escalate the situation". Indeed, that action in a workplace situation at the present time may well result in disciplinary action being taken against any person committing such an assault on a fellow employee whatever the provocation may have been.

It may well be that the person " kicking out" may be able to prove that another employee did touch her in a manner that could represent a sexual assault. However, unless the counter-assault can be demonstrated as very necessary self-defence because of the force of the assault against herself or himself, then it may well be judged by an employer that an inappropriate level of violence was used in response to the other employee's actions.

It should always be remembered that two wrongs do not make a right.

In such a situation as inappropriate sexual touching, grabbing or even words, the first action is to firmly tell the person to end such action and not carry out similar in the future. You may wish to inform a line manager on what has happened and also take note of anyone who may have witnessed what took place. Therefore should such an occurrence take place again you can readily proceed to take action against the person involved by engaging the employers grievance procedure under the protection of current employment legislation.

As people who carry out demeaning sexual acts in a workplace against fellow workers often effect such practise against a number of employees, then it is possible to bring forward a group grievance against such persons, and that can be very effective indeed.

Blondie exactly. Unless you’ve been in that position you don’t know how you’ll react. There’s always a very real risk that kicking out will escalate the situation so many women (and I count myself in that) freeze for fear of losing a job and finding themselves unable to pay the bills, or causing a massive family feud with no support or backup, or finding themselves at the end of a more serious assault or any number of things. What strikes me from the posts where women did hit back is that they were all supported and believed by people in a position of power and authority - not of us had that experience when we reported it, and that tends to influence how you react to things.

Evie64, read my earlier post. I too would have said that if anything like that happened to me, I would shout, scream, make a scene, slap the person etc - yet when it actually happened, I completely froze and couldn't do a thing. You never know how you will react in a certain situation until it happens. It's easy to judge others who didn't react as you did - and responses like yours are partly why I still feel a sense of guilt and shame that I did freeze when it happened to me.

We didn't take drinks into toilets because drinks didn't get spiked. I m sure we would have, had that been a possibility.

I think it is different generations and different dangers, Each generation is wise in its own time.

But absolutely nothing has changed for those young women if anything it's even worse.

On the subject of women protecting themselves, then in pubs of recent i have seen women carrying their drinks into the toilets when they go in.

One of our grandchildren is now nearly nineteen and my wife spoke to her on that subject when we seen her a few weeks ago. She said that greatest danger for anyone in these times is to have your drink "spiked" by someone when you are not looking.

Therefore young persons today (especially women) carry their drinks with them wherever they go on a night out, even into toilets.

Such are the times we live in, but it does demonstrate how young people today are much more aware of dangers than we of a few generations back were.