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second, third, etc, immigrants or 'poor working class' ...

(22 Posts)
jura2 Mon 02-Dec-19 15:07:45

why do they seem more vociferous against their own people once they have broken the glass ceiling?

for discussion.

jura2 Mon 02-Dec-19 15:41:13

first became aware of this in South of France, as the National Front was full of second and third generations Spanish and Italian immigrants, In NY too.

But recently people like Priti Patel, and to a lesser exend Javid- people like Mark François and others in the Con party.

Gaunt47 Mon 02-Dec-19 16:07:31

It's why people who have given up smoking can be nasty to people who haven't yet; people who have given up drinking for a month expect others to do the same; people who have found god talk endlessly about the advantages of a religious life.
It's just what people do.
I thought the term 'glass ceiling' was what women hit in their careers? Perhaps it has now translated to other spheres.

Pantglas2 Mon 02-Dec-19 16:12:43

It would also explain why Labour voting immigrants were more likely to have voted for Brexit I.e pulling the ladder up behind them!

jura2 Mon 02-Dec-19 16:15:49

btw had no idea Francois's mother is an italian immigrant, and that he has the right to Italian nationality ...

Hetty58 Mon 02-Dec-19 16:17:09

It's the 'I'm alright Jack, pull up the ladder' thing. Discrimination is everywhere, including among ethnic minorities. My Indian neighbour won't speak to a Pakistani woman opposite. They are both opposed to allowing more immigration!

welbeck Mon 02-Dec-19 16:20:52

I find the title and OP unpleasant in its othering.
what do they do. they. them. that lot over there.
not us.

Doodle Mon 02-Dec-19 16:22:23

“Their own people”. Who are you talking about jura. Surely second and third generation immigrants to the UK are British aren’t they. My Great Grandmother was French. I have never in all my life considered myself anything than British.

Doodle Mon 02-Dec-19 16:24:29

Sorry I might have misunderstood what you meant by second, third etc.

jura2 Mon 02-Dec-19 16:44:13

Sorry, 2nd, 3rd, generation immigrants- and by all means not all of them.

And this is me, my OH and so many of our family. Some are very aware that they themselves are immigrants- others not and totally deny their roots and just do not want to acknowledge the past ...and yes, want to pull the ladder behind them. Have you ever heard Francois talking about his immigrant Italian mother?

You can consider yourself British, and still acknowledge your immigrant past, surely.

jura2 Mon 02-Dec-19 17:58:01

and have empathy and remember the help and support given to their parents or grandparents- that allowed them to succeed, do well, and serve this country so well, one way or another.

notanan2 Mon 02-Dec-19 18:01:57

Safety in some cases. Dissociating themselves with the target.

It is relatively easy to stick up for targets of disctimination if you arent close to being obe yourself

Chestnut Mon 02-Dec-19 18:35:13

welbeck - the word 'they' in the original post is a continuation of the title so no need to explain who 'they' are. Are you one of the permanently offended?

jura2 Mon 02-Dec-19 18:40:30

notanan2- good point. Thinking of one of the most openly racist person I know, in his 90s now- is an Italian immigrant from Naples post WW1. These people were extremely poor, and arrived in NY in abject circumstances, mocked for their accent, their clothes, and bullied mercilessly. I suppose few managed to rise, get a decent education and training, and do well- to the point of gaining real respect and a very good income. Changing their italian name so it would sound more American - and turning their back to their own community to fit in and keep climbing the ladder.

So yes, perhaps bullied becoming bullies- for survival and get back at them, somehow.

notanan2 Mon 02-Dec-19 18:42:43

I think its often fear of being "othered" again IYKWIM

Doodle Mon 02-Dec-19 19:31:33

No jura I never think of my immigrant past. I suppose all people in the UK are immigrants of some kind. I was born in the UK, my parents were baron in the UK, my grandparents were born in the UK. I have never ever thought of any of my family as being immigrants ( not because I have anything against immigrants) because my family are not immigrants. My great great great grandfather was a soldier but I do not consider myself to be part of a military family. How far back are we going to go. People born in the UK of parents born in the UK are British as far as I’m concerned.

Doodle Mon 02-Dec-19 19:34:37

This sounds a bit like the Americans who call themselves Irish American or Scottish American meaning that someone in their dim and distant past came from Ireland or Scotland. It’s rubbish. If they are born in America of American parents then they are American.

ExperiencedNotOld Mon 02-Dec-19 20:09:15

I find the whole concept of class distinctions still being thought relevant in Britain today as rather distasteful. I really do think most people immersed in real life and engaged with a wide variety of people judge others by their merits and attibutes alone, not what they (or their father) did for a living, how much they earn or where they were educated. I dismiss the examples of discrimation by those no so far removed from being immigrants themselves. Their struggle to settle was probably such that they don’t want their now-stability rocked. From the daughter of an Irishman that left school at 12, who lives comfortably in extreme old age as a result of his labours, not his position in the world.

Chestnut Mon 02-Dec-19 23:23:24

This sounds a bit like the Americans who call themselves Irish American or Scottish American meaning that someone in their dim and distant past came from Ireland or Scotland. It’s rubbish. If they are born in America of American parents then they are American.
You seem to be confusing nationality with ethnic background.
The only true Americans are the native American indians. Everyone else is from another ethic group so they are quite correct to call themselves 'Irish American' or whatever.
However, in this country the term 'Black British' is sometimes used which is rather meaningless as 'black' is a colour not an ethnic group.

Doodle Wed 04-Dec-19 20:23:30

Australians aren’t the true Australian race but they don’t call themselves Irish Australian or Italian Australian.
Surely there is a country called America and if you were born there of parents who were born there you can call yourself American.

Chestnut Wed 04-Dec-19 23:16:52

American is not an ethnic group, it is a nationality.

Hetty58 Wed 04-Dec-19 23:42:25

In the UK we are nearly all immigrants, really. It just depends upon how far back you go with your research.

My genetic test results are fairly typically 'English' - a mix of Northwestern European, Scandinavian, French and German, Irish and British with a 0.2 percent of North African.