Transgender, anyone?

I dont think fionne orlander, who writes frequently on this topic, and is also a transwomen is at all sexist.

I used to have a transgender woman customer when I worked in M&S. She always wore jeans and jumpers and a scruffy ponytail. In other words she looked like a perfectly normal woman. Only her voice gave her away at all. She was very nice, taking a design course so we had plenty to talk about.

Less successful was the one I met in Cornwall who had complained about the hard time she was having. Again a very nice person but she was wearing skirts while sporting designer stubble. You couldn't see her as anything but a man in a skirt.

I'm trying to understand what is sexist about wanting to wear dresses or certain sorts of clothes, or to expend time on beauty or hair. There are natal women who do this, are they sexist? Surely it is more feminist to allow women to choose in all aspects of their lives and to allow the same to trans women. In the 70s women rejected spending time on their appearance, but this was countered by 90s feminists who embraced "girly" feminism and rejected any idea that women should be restricted or defined by the way they dress.

I understand that some people feel their biology is at odds with their psyche and so desire to 'correct' what they see as a mismatch between their sexual/reproductive organs (TG)
I understand that some men enjoy dressing in clothes usually associated with women be have no desire to become a woman (TV)
I understand homosexuality/ lesbianism/bisexuality
What I find hard to understand are individuals who want to pick & mix..today Matthew I am a man..yesterday and on Sunday I was a woman... like it is deciding what to have for supper...

being a woman /man is far more than genitalia /clothing/ hair etc...those are just the external markers. It is living and growing up in a community/society and being responded to/responding as a male/female. Cultures define 'gender' and unless a person has experienced living as a male /female they really have little understanding of what it is really like... hence why some TG people focus on the gender expectations ....

Yes it's the difference between gender and sex. It's the assumptions that clothes etc have anything to do with being a woman. It's the discussions about still liking football despite being a woman (I do assume that was a joke) it's the use of sexist phrases such as living like a woman (I dont blame diane for this these were trotted out ad nauseam by the medical establishment), it's the description of women as privileged.

I'm not transgender but know two ladies who are. The first is lovely . She's still very worried about people thinking 'badly' of her even though she has lots of friends.

The second so nasty to everyone. She's constantly looking for remarks and criticism in perfectly normal conversations that it makes me scared to talk to her. The daft thing is that if she didn't bring it to people's attention most people wouldn't realise. She's a much slighter frame than the first lady. She's had to move house several times because (she says) people are horrible to her and won't accept her for who she is but I think it's more likely that she's horrible to them and in the end they simply can't stand being around her. I swear she could cause an argument in a graveyard

I used to know a man who had DID and some days he was male and some days female. Sometimes it swapped during the day. He had no control over it and no warning when the swap was going to happen.

There have always been people unhappy with their gender and I am sympathetic to those feelings and tolerant if it doesn't impinge on others but somehow, especially now, the transgender issue has become strident and seems to want to avoid seeing gender as a spectrum.

What I notice is that men who wish to change gender always assume women like pretty dresses, make up and high heels. Is that how women are? I'm not and never have been. You don't see much about women transitioning to men (happy to be corrected on this) , does this mean that because I mostly dress in jeans, flat heels, avoid make up and like comfortable, warm clothes that I am really a man? Don't think so.

I was a tomboy as it used to be called but I don't think I was female because of a biological mistake. I hated what I perceived as the fun boys were allowed to have in behaviour and clothing while I felt trapped in female clothing and roles.

I had to look up the acronym TERF, I don't think I am one of those but I do think there are issues about transmen in sport, in prison and in traditionally women-only areas. It is easy to read reasons why. Gender is not a politically free arena and you can't just pretend it's about biology.

It’s a pity it’s behind the paywall as it’s a particular perspective I’d like to read.

There’s a new DT article today. This is an example of what I find excruciating about the column. I, not yet used to being someone who might need help with a small piece of luggage, insisted on carrying it out to the taxi myself.

As though being a woman renders you feeble and pathetic. It does women no service to portray them like that.

That's one of the Things isn't it SueDonim. The focus on hair, makeup, 'chivalry' not messy periods, pregnancy, child birth, menopause, being patronised or sexually harassed. All part of life's rich pattern for so many women. How can any man who wants to live as a woman expect a cab driver to help with the luggage?

I do feel there is a one dimensional image that some trans women try to project, for example fairly high profile transwoman, India Willoughby 50 something, is all flicky hair, sparkly nails, vertiginous heels, very short skirts, in my mind that's caricature. I also object to transwomen who have been women for five minutes telling the rest of womenkind they should shave their legs, hairy legs aren't nice. Personal preference imo! we will, or we won't up to the individual we don't need to be advised as to a womanly ideal, we are individuals and will decide for ourselves. At least she had the good grace to suggest that those who self identify, unlike transitioning transwomen shouldn't use women's loos.

Caitlyn Jenner, I believe when asked, said the hardest thing about being a woman is deciding what to wear I'm not sure some transwomen understand women at all if they think we are that one dimensional and our lives and ruled by the facile.

Surely it isn't hard to understand. Girls take 12 / 15 years to 'learn' how to become women. What is acceptable, what isn't, what is them, what isn't, what their specific culture allows, what it doesn't.

When a transwoman goes 'live', it takes her a long time to fine tune it. They haven't had the intensive training most of us have. Look at them 20 years later. How good is their representation then? That is a fairer judgement.

I have been acquaintances with a couple of older trans women. One was a scruffy devil. Longer hair, but dishevelled, no make up, grandad jeans. The other still liked a blokish boxy jacket and flat shoes. I am no glamorous granny, but those two made me feel quite well dressed.

Odd that living as a woman never involves doing the majority of the housework, taking on the caring role for free, full mental load and planning all household tasks, cleaning the loo etc.

Wear what you like and love who you please but women are females with any personality, not a certain personality in any body.

I don't think trans women are any different to the rest of us. There are some women who do the high maintenance, high heels look and some that don't, the same as trans women. I can do it but usually don't. I think we are luckier than men in that we can dress mostly as we choose, whereas they tend to be restricted in their dress style depending upon the area of work they choose. A woman solicitor for example may have highheels and a dress or flats and a suit. A man will be expected to wear a suit.

Yes that's why it's important to challenge sexism as it is when women are sexist. Otherwise it's the transphobia of low expectations, the transwomen I read would just laugh at the sexist suitcase nonsense.

I had to look up TERF FannyCornforth but I’m with you.

I understand people's fears and frustrations but I think that trans women need to be under the umbrella of WOMAN and we should be offering them the same protections and equality we offer each other while not compromising our own safety, which is tough but doable.

Well I say "we" but there are far too many women out there not looking for equality or raising up other women so.... Not a fit for purpose umbrella, doesn't always cover women of colour or lesbians or bisexuals or different religions either

It would be nice if all women stood together but realistically we are a very fractured, factioned group

Astral I simply do nor see transwomen as women in the way that I am a woman. The whole self id fight over the last few years has been about an attack on the rights of biological women and an attempt to erase them as a category with rights of their own. The latest nonsense of people who bleed has been topped by SANDS ( a charity I've also supported) having to issue an apology for tweeting about the ‘birthing parent’ rather than using the word mother and La Leche League in the USA tweeting about human milk feeders. Earlier this week, I read about a lesbian social group being criticised for not wanting transwomen to join the group.The way that lesbians have been harassed and criticised for not wanting to have sex with a male bodied transwomen would be laughable if it weren’t so serious. It’s not doable at all to treat transwomen as indistinguishable from biological women. Thank goodness that recently RU recognised this.

Astral

I understand people's fears and frustrations but I think that trans women need to be under the umbrella of WOMAN and we should be offering them the same protections and equality we offer each other while not compromising our own safety, which is tough but doable.

Well I say "we" but there are far too many women out there not looking for equality or raising up other women so.... Not a fit for purpose umbrella, doesn't always cover women of colour or lesbians or bisexuals or different religions either

It would be nice if all women stood together but realistically we are a very fractured, factioned group

Why? Why under the umbrella of woman and not widen the bandwidth of men? What about sport, awards, rape crisis centres, representation, girls schools, changing rooms? What about the women who are excluded when males are included?

What is your definition of woman? I'll go first, adult human female. What makes males women?

My concern about all this is how young children are being treated with puberty blockers. I do understand the reasoning behind it - once a young man hits puberty their feet and their jaws grow and this creates a problem if they later want to pass themselves off as a woman, as no amount of surgery or drugs will make these go away.

I have a friend who transitioned male to female and she frankly looks like a pantomime dame - huge feet, 6 foot 4, huge hands, male jaw etc. But.........she is now happy and I guess that is all that matters. And it is a joy to see after a lifetime of feeling somehow "wrong."

The issue of whether those who identify as female, but retain male genitalia, being allowed into exclusively female spaces (toilets, changing rooms, prisons, sports etc.) is hugely problematical. Mumsnet has a thread discussing the rape of a woman in a female prison by a transgender person still in possession of male genitalia.

There are lots of issues to be ironed out and expressing concerns about these should not lead to name-calling with obscure acronyms.

I thought I was clear in my comment but my point didn't negate or argue against the issues in the replies given to it so there's not much more to add really